Vices long forgotten

EDIT: The title was supposed to be "voices long forgotten". I don't know how to change it.

OTL, our notion of our distant past is biased due to to the sources we have. For example, till the XIX century, our [1] knowledge of the Antiquity (I mean, the V or IV century B.C.) came only from two sources: the Greek ones (copied or relaborated by the Romans, and kept through the Dark Ages by the work of Monks) and the Hebrew ones (icluded in the Bible). Practically all the iformation we have about elaborated cultures like the Phoenitians or the Carthaginians was written by their enemies. We don’t know for sure how they saw themselves nor their neighbours, and we can’t be sure about what was their worldview was. We know they were great sailors and made great discoveries, but we don’t what they thought about them.

In the XIX century, the worldview of other civilizations (like the Ancient Egyptians or the Assyrians) was revealed to us. At the same time, Europe got in touch with civilizations which had kept record of their past, like China or India, who have informations of events that date back at least to the begining of the first milenium B.C..

In the XX century, the “voices” of other civilizations were recovered, as it was the case of the Mayans. Yet our knowledge of the past is still very fragmentary, as we don’t have first hand information about several of the most elavorated civilizations of our history. We haven’t deciphered Cretan scripture, IIRC, we don’t have written information about the Indo Valley culture, Tehotihuacan or Tiwanaku.

But what if things were different? What if some of this voices had not been forgotten? There are many interesting Pods I can think of, but you can add any one you want, and analyse its consequences:

1) WI Ancient Egyptian script had been dechiphered in the XVI century?

2) WI most Mesoamericans texts on paper weren’t destroyed in 1530, and had been translated into Spanish?

3) WI more pieces of information about the Indo Valley civilization had been preserved, uncovered and deciphered in the1940ies? What political implications would this have in the Indo-Pakistani rivalry?
And what if it had been dechiphered in the late 1920ies? Let’s say they told the story of an elaborate civilization created by a Dravidian culture which was destroyed by a bunch of drunk Aryan barbarians? What effects would this have on nazzism, for example? Now we have some fragments of the Rigveda which tell a story about Indoeuropean Pagan Nomads who had war chariots, herded cattle and fought many wars against Brown-skinned native city dwellers. What if we had the other side of the story?

4) WI, somehow, direct information about the Phoenitians had been preserved? This would be interesting, but I don’t know, how this could be achieved without major changes in our TL, i.e., to have Carthaghe winning the Punnic wars

5) Any other analagous Pod you can think of.

I think this is something which can be added in written ATLs. A delay in our understanding of Ancient Egyptian or an earlier European rediscovery of China (which happened OTL in the XVII and XVIII centuries) migh have important consequences, even if not very significant in the short term.

Thoughts? Comments?


[1] Or, more precisely, the notions Europeans had of the Antiquity
 
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The title was supposed to be "voices long forgotten". I don't know how to change it
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Vices sounds much more fun.

Lots of good ideas here. Will do my best to give intelligent comments. All of this is very speculative.

1) WI Ancient Egyptian script had been dechiphered in the XVI century?
A better understanding of Ancient Egypt would mean less pseudo-historical Masonic nonsense in the 18th century. More importantly, the discipline of Linguistics would get a big increase in prestige, possibly leading to earlier breakthroughs in other areas of the subject (e.g. classification of language families). This could have a knock-on effect in related disciplines such as Psychology and Philosophy. For example: an earlier development of structural Linguistics could lead to an earlier Structuralism (reprented in OTL by e.g. Levi-Strauss, Althusser and Lacan); earlier Chomskyan linguistics means that Behaviourism goes into the intellectual dustbin of History earlier than in OTL.

2) WI most Mesoamericans texts on paper weren’t destroyed in 1530, and had been translated into Spanish
Very Optimistically: Maybe more respect for Native American civilizations.

3) WI more pieces of information about the Indo Valley civilization had been preserved, uncovered and deciphered in the1940ies? What political implications would this have in the Indo-Pakistani rivalry?
Not many implications for India-Pakistan, I suspect, but there'd be important internal ramifications for India, in that Dravidian Nationalism in the South would be given a very major ideological boost.
And what if it had been dechiphered in the late 1920ies? Let’s say they told the story of an elaborate civilization created by a Dravidian culture which was destroyed by a bunch of drunk Aryan barbarians? What effects would this have on nazzism, for example? Now we have some fragments of the Rigveda which tell a story about Indoeuropean Pagan Nomads who had war chariots, herded cattle and fought many wars against Brown-skinned native city dwellers. What if we had the other side of the story?
This could potentially have a big effect on History. If the whole Nazi mythology of Aryan superiority is made to look silly, then it could be that they don't get enough support to come to power. Nothing is more devastating for a political movement's chances than getting laughed at. Now IMO it was inevitable that some sort of very right-wing government would take over Germany, but in this version of History it could be a right-wing government that wasn't virulently racist/ sociopathic.

4) WI, somehow, direct information about the Phoenitians had been preserved? This would be interesting, but I don’t know, how this could be achieved without major changes in our TL, i.e., to have Carthaghe winning the Punnic wars
As you say, this probably needs a drastic change in our TL, such as Hannibal taking Rome. In which case, people in our time might be wondering what the Romans thought about things.

5) Any other analagous Pod you can think of
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WI: The Gnostic Gospels are discovered during Napoleon's expedition to Egypt, taken back to Paris, and translated?
 
I'd like to know what the Druids would say if they wrote things down. It's a shame really, that they refused to weite things down just so their memories would stay sharp. All of British mythology and folklore would be intact as it was passed down by the Romans (who would incorporate the Druidic writign sintotheir own religions) and all their other knowldge as judges and healers. It would be very interesting.
 

Thande

Donor
Egyptian translations would have been more significant even earlier, considering all the mediaeval alchemic interest in hermetic teachings.
 

Thande

Donor
This could potentially have a big effect on History. If the whole Nazi mythology of Aryan superiority is made to look silly, then it could be that they don't get enough support to come to power. Nothing is more devastating for a political movement's chances than getting laughed at.

I think you're dead wrong here. After all, the Nazis idolised the Vikings, another bunch of drunk rapists and pillagers. And why not - why shouldn't the corrupt, decadent civilisations of inferior races be brought to fire and the sword by brave Aryan men living upon the land under the sun? (Etc.)
 

Deleted member 5719

I'd like to know what the Druids would say if they wrote things down. It's a shame really, that they refused to weite things down just so their memories would stay sharp. All of British mythology and folklore would be intact as it was passed down by the Romans (who would incorporate the Druidic writign sintotheir own religions) and all their other knowldge as judges and healers. It would be very interesting.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/Discussion/showthread.php?t=140630

May I humbly and disinterestedly offer this thread which touches upon similar themes?
 
I think you're dead wrong here. After all, the Nazis idolised the Vikings, another bunch of drunk rapists and pillagers. And why not - why shouldn't the corrupt, decadent civilisations of inferior races be brought to fire and the sword by brave Aryan men living upon the land under the sun? (Etc.)
Bear in mind that the Nazis got a less than impressive 2.6% of the vote in the 1928 elections. At that stage they were a very marginal, fringe movement; they weren't even the strongest far-right party (that was the DVP). It was only with the subsequent economic chaos that they became a significant political force.

Post Wall St Crash, it was IMO inevitable that some right-wing party would come to power. But there was nothing inevitable about it being the Nazis. It might not have taken much in the way of a POD for some other group (say the Reichspartei für Volksrecht und Aufwertung) to have picked up support instead.

Being identified with drunken civilization-destroyers would, as you say, undoubtedly go down well with the hardcore. It wouldn't necessarily impress ordinary Germans too much, though. And it even might be enough to tip the balance towards a different group, which would then benefit from the kind of political momentum that the Nazis got historically.
 
2) WI most Mesoamericans texts on paper weren’t destroyed in 1530, and had been translated into Spanish?
Interesting! presumably many of these will be in Maya, which suggests that the Europeans of this era will be able to read far more of their inscriptions. This probably also means that the heart of the Yucatan will be explored more. The Maya will be quite a bit more famous and well known, closer to Egypt I think, in terms of what 'ancient civilization' means to the average person. I can also foresee a larger number of romantics journeying to the Yucatan whenever something like that movement comes up, which considering what happened in OTL might just be the time that the Yucatan rebellion was taking place...

What the Aztec codices will reveal I'm not sure, probably just a lot more information about their life/history, but there might be a large number of surprises.


Admiral Brown;29593075) Any other analagous Pod you can think of.[/quote said:
more Quipu's survive, as does the knowledge to read them. This will finally settle the argument over whether they're numeric & mnemonic devices or a logographic 'writing' system which would be really nice. And if they were a 'writing' system then... damn! So many changes!

Firstly, how we understand writing will have to be changed radically, considering it's an entirely new type of writing in form, and I imagine in information.

Secondly, we will finally have accurate information on what the Incas actually were like and thought of themselves! Oh god the mere thought of that makes me so happy! To have a little more light in such an obscure area!
 
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