Vespasian and the Batavians?

Sandmannius

Banned
I have a question.

According to Tacticus, during Vespasian's struggle against Vitellius in the Roman civil war of 69, Vespasian promised the Batavian Chieftain independence if he would aid him in his struggle against Vitellius, which he did. The Batavians however kept on fighting the Romans even after Vitellius had surrendered, yada yada.

Now, what if the Batavians had cooperated with Vespasian after Vitellius had been defeated? Would there really ever been a Batavian indepence? Would emperor Vespasian really go along with what he said? And if he did, how would it go down?
 
I don't know anything about the subject, but Vespasian and the Batavians would be a good name for a band.
Okay, maybe not.
 
Well there are several possibilities.
- Vespasian denies the rights he promised the Batavian, a revolt happens. But is not nearly a effective as the OTL one.
- The Batavians gain the rights promised and eventually assimililate into Roman Germania.
- The Batavians gain he rights promised and maintain their independence though they will largely Romanise.

Vespasian seems like the kind of guy who would keep his word. But would he keep his word to a couple of barely civilised barbarians? No matter how brave, or how good they could fight...
 

Sandmannius

Banned
I will comment: I admit I had no idea, since I thought Batavia was never a part of roman Germania...

The more you know. ;)

I don't know anything about the subject, but Vespasian and the Batavians would be a good name for a band.
Okay, maybe not.

It might actually work.

Vespasian would probably stab them in the back, knowing the Romans.

Well there are several possibilities.
- Vespasian denies the rights he promised the Batavian, a revolt happens. But is not nearly a effective as the OTL one.
- The Batavians gain the rights promised and eventually assimililate into Roman Germania.
- The Batavians gain he rights promised and maintain their independence though they will largely Romanise.

Vespasian seems like the kind of guy who would keep his word. But would he keep his word to a couple of barely civilised barbarians? No matter how brave, or how good they could fight...

I have considered those possibilities, and I agree it's pretty hard to imagine any kind of independence, it just seems so ASB. The Romans could easily find a way to put the Batavians down, it's just how they'd go about it doing it.

But, like you said Promethean, Vespasian wasn't that much of a dick considering Roman emperors and he also seemed to be a somewhat wise man. Vespasian had also seen a lot of bloodshed not long before the beginning of his reign (in Iudea), which might contribute to him not wanting to violently put down the Batavian culture.

I can imagine the Batavians gaining a sort of "limited independence", meanining that they are still a part of the Empire but are told they have a sort of priviliged relationship with the Empire. Thoughts?
 
I don't see why not, however how long could this status be kept? Another Emperor might decide he doesn't like this whole limited independence thing.
 
I can imagine the Batavians gaining a sort of "limited independence", meanining that they are still a part of the Empire but are told they have a sort of priviliged relationship with the Empire. Thoughts?

This isn't that different from many provinces in OTL, no?
 

Sandmannius

Banned
This isn't that different from many provinces in OTL, no?

I'm not quite sure. The Batavians had a special relationship with the Romans as in it it was different, they paid in soldiers rather than taxes, but what I meant with priviliged was that there might be a sort of small amount of representation for the Batavians or something?

Christ I don't even know. :(:p
 
This isn't that different from many provinces in OTL, no?

But quit different for a frontiers province.
Also the Batavians were a very important source of manpower for the Rhine Army, some number i have seen speculate that as much as 80% of the tribes males did military service.
 
But quit different for a frontiers province.
Also the Batavians were a very important source of manpower for the Rhine Army, some number i have seen speculate that as much as 80% of the tribes males did military service.

That huge number was a reason that they revolted anyways.
It would also be beneficial for the Batavians that in case they do not revolt their soldiers will not be distributed among the Roman frontiers.
Which means that Romanisation of the Batavians will be a bit less.
This means that the ''Batavian tribal identity'' may continue to exist for a few hundred years.
The best bet for them to survive in some form is to either fill the gap the Romans leave in the 3rd/4th centuries or not get assimilated by the Franks.
 

Sandmannius

Banned
That huge number was a reason that they revolted anyways.
It would also be beneficial for the Batavians that in case they do not revolt their soldiers will not be distributed among the Roman frontiers.
Which means that Romanisation of the Batavians will be a bit less.
This means that the ''Batavian tribal identity'' may continue to exist for a few hundred years.
The best bet for them to survive in some form is to either fill the gap the Romans leave in the 3rd/4th centuries or not get assimilated by the Franks.

If the Batavians did not revolt their soldiers would still be sent all over the northern frontier of the Roman Empire, unless you are talking about after the initial revolt, then which you might be right, as Vespasian might not want to push them around any further.

Here is some information I forgot to mention, most tribes in Roman Germania and Gaul had sworn alledgiance to Civilis and the Rebellion, some large tribes that were not under Roman control like the Frisi and the Chamavi were also allies with Civilis and willing to give him aid, heck, even many actual soldiers from Rome in Germania Inferior had abandoned their Roman superiors and joined the Batavian/Barbaric revolutionary army.

The amount of support for Civilis was tremendous, this could affect the outcome of the revolt in various ways, as Vespasian is now under more pressure to act upon the rebellion, and now that the rebellion had gained such momentum it is harder for the Batavians and their allies to give up (which is what in OTL).

But, the Batavians were romanticed by Roman historians and presumably well thought of by the Roman public, and like I said there was a lot of support for the Batavian cause, so Vespasian might reluctantly (or willingly even) give them what they want.

Thoughts?
 

Sandmannius

Banned
I just got some more information.

Vespasian had apparently send Civilis a personal letter requesting his aid and asking for help by fighting against Vitellius, promising him Batavian independence. Civilis had already defeated Vitellus by the time the letter had arrived, and so he killed two birds with one stone.

By the time that Vitellius was dead and Vespasians troops were in control of Rome, the empire was still largely fractured and Vespasian was staying in Egypt to wait things out for a little bit while finishing up the Jewish revolt.

Vespasian was an honest man, there was a gigantic barbarian revolt and he did not have full control over the empire yet, not even in Rome. So at this time he would probably have to give in to the barbarians. But, there were already so many tribes revolting, those would still have to be put down. I mean, I think the most possible part is the Romans chipping off the top of Germania Inferior, much like Tiberius did, but, the Rhine is the perfect natural barrier.

I still have my doubts.
 
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But quit different for a frontiers province.
Also the Batavians were a very important source of manpower for the Rhine Army, some number i have seen speculate that as much as 80% of the tribes males did military service.

Ehh client kingdoms were common during Roman times, so you could have that sort of deal happening. They were especially useful along frontiers with hostile territories, as the Romans would allow the client kingdoms to act as a buffer. The classic example was Armenia, which buffered Rome and the Parthian Empire. Maybe they would let Batavia buffer the Germanic tribes?
 
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