Very Early German Unification.

How can you make it so a unified Germany comes into existence by the 1500s, preferably with a PoD no earlier than 1399? That would be about the same time France and Spain unified.

And what are the chances that this unified Germany sends expeditions to the New World along the english and spanish? And what would be it's politics regarding colonization (like stablishing german colonies with the purpose of trade, or military conquest of the natives?).
 
I know very little about this, but I do know that centralisation of the Holy Roman Empire has been explored as early German unification. As to their colonial policies, would they be very different to the nations you compared them with, England and Spain? Both were unnecessarily harsh on their natives, despite laws against it in the case of the Spanish.

Or do you think they'd take a more French-like approach and ally and trade with the Amerindians?
 
How can you make it so a unified Germany comes into existence by the 1500s, preferably with a PoD no earlier than 1399?

There was an attempt to reform the Empire from 1434 to 1438 as a reaction to the Hussiten wars which convinced the nobles that a more active central power could be useful. However this didn't went anywhere because the emperor wanted to increase its own power while the nobles wanted a central power in which they also had an influence and neither party was interested in compromising, once the hussites were defeated.

However in 1437 several minor nobels, parts of the church and free cities proposed a compromise, as they feared the power of the Dukes and hoped that a stronger central power would protect them. This compromise - which would more than a century later be considered again under Maximilian I - included things like an independant court (Reichskammergericht), a unified military (although the nobles would be allowed to keep their own forces) unified currency, and an assembly of nobles which should govern together with the emperor. As the Hussiten were defeated no one was interested in this proposal anymore.

But lets assume the Hussiten mangage to hold out for longer, which is not to improbable as the battle of Lipany was only lost due to a deception, the proposal might be accepted.


If its impelmention is succesful (which is far from certain, but as France was still involved in the hundred years war there would be less outside interference) this could lead to an unification. Although some civil wars are likely to be fought over it.

And what are the chances that this unified Germany sends expeditions to the New World along the english and spanish? And what would be it's politics regarding colonization (like stablishing german colonies with the purpose of trade, or military conquest of the natives?).

Even if Germany is unified, it won't participate in the first waves of colonisation, because:

-The unification of Germany itself is going to take several decades.

-Italy and Switzerland while still nominally part of the Empire were de facto independant for centuries. As soon as a strong central power is established in Germany itself (wheter it is centred around the emperor or the nobles) it will try to reassert itself in those areas. Of course this will cause resistance by the swiss and italians and lead to several wars. While Switzerland may be reconquered, there is no chance that northern Italy will be regained. Of course the Germans won't admit that before they are defeated several times and even then they might develope an obsession over Italy like France did IOTL.

-Speaking of france, half of the Duchy of Burgundy consisted out of french lands, while the other half belonged to Germany. IOTL France mangaged to aquire the lands relatively easy, as the disunited Germany couldn't put up much resistance, but with an united Germany this will lead to several wars.

- The german order and poland had several wars, and some german nobles supported the german order, which led to poland supporting the hussits.

- The Ottomans were subjugating the balkans and comming closer to German lands.

All this will keep Germany concentrated on continental affairs for quite some time. Of course this unified Germany will also posses the ports of the Netherlands and Flandern, so once it becomes obvious that the oversea possesion are valuable they are likely to join.
 
All this will keep Germany concentrated on continental affairs for quite some time. Of course this unified Germany will also posses the ports of the Netherlands and Flandern, so once it becomes obvious that the oversea possesion are valuable they are likely to join.

I can imagine some German participation in early colonialization, due to those ports you mentioned. Early Dutch colonialization was driven by economical reasons, particularly trade. There might be trading forts of some colonialization companies based in Dutch and Northern German ports. This is, however, fundamentally different from the sort of state-driven colonialization´and conquest for example the Spanish undertook. Something like chartered Fugger-colonies might still happen yet.
 

Eurofed

Banned
There was an attempt to reform the Empire from 1434 to 1438 as a reaction to the Hussiten wars which convinced the nobles that a more active central power could be useful. However this didn't went anywhere because the emperor wanted to increase its own power while the nobles wanted a central power in which they also had an influence and neither party was interested in compromising, once the hussites were defeated.

However in 1437 several minor nobels, parts of the church and free cities proposed a compromise, as they feared the power of the Dukes and hoped that a stronger central power would protect them. This compromise - which would more than a century later be considered again under Maximilian I - included things like an independant court (Reichskammergericht), a unified military (although the nobles would be allowed to keep their own forces) unified currency, and an assembly of nobles which should govern together with the emperor. As the Hussiten were defeated no one was interested in this proposal anymore.

But lets assume the Hussiten mangage to hold out for longer, which is not to improbable as the battle of Lipany was only lost due to a deception, the proposal might be accepted.


If its impelmention is succesful (which is far from certain, but as France was still involved in the hundred years war there would be less outside interference) this could lead to an unification. Although some civil wars are likely to be fought over it.

I agree.

-The unification of Germany itself is going to take several decades.

Yep.

-Italy and Switzerland while still nominally part of the Empire were de facto independant for centuries. As soon as a strong central power is established in Germany itself (wheter it is centred around the emperor or the nobles) it will try to reassert itself in those areas. Of course this will cause resistance by the swiss and italians and lead to several wars. While Switzerland may be reconquered, there is no chance that northern Italy will be regained. Of course the Germans won't admit that before they are defeated several times and even then they might develope an obsession over Italy like France did IOTL.

The development of national self-consciousness were still quite partial and reversible in 15th-16th century Switzlerland, and as it concerns Italy, our educated elites were particularistic (but no more than the German ones themselves) but still quite captivated by the imperial ideal, too. The 1400s-1500s were centuries before Italian nationalism would be born. Italian nobles and city-states had asserted effective independence from the Empire for pretty much the same particularistic reasons and in the same way that German nobles and city-states had been. Northern Italy was an integral part of the HRE just like Bohemia or Austria. If a centralization of HRE is successfully pulled, northern Italy is in all likelihood going to be a part of it.

True, France is going to object, but some wars with France are going to happen anyway, since there were other parts of the HRE-space (Low Countries, Burgundy) that the reborn Empire is going to reclaim and France deems part of its turf, too. If the process is successful, and those wars are won, northern Italy is going to be reclaimed, too. An interesting issue is what happens with the Papacy and southern Italy. France needs to be defeated in war anyway, but Spain had ambitions on and dynastic-economic ties with Southern Italy. A compromise may emerge by which the HRE keeps northern Italy and Spain keeps southern Italy. Or the Empire may win a war with Spain too and keep Naples (maybe Spain keeps Sicily and Sardinia, or maybe not).

An interesting issue is what is going to happen when the Protestant Reform hits (or something much like it: the Catholic Church was so corrupt, greedy, and theocratic that something major in Europe was going to happen to put its political power and economic privilege into question, maybe with different faces: ask the Lollards and the Hussites). If the HRE Emperor pulls a Henry VIII and takes the lead of the Reform in the Empire, creating an "Imperial" Church much like the Anglican church, in alliance with the moderate Reformers like *Luther, he may expel the Papacy from Italy and reclaim the Papal States, too, if not southern Italy.

-Speaking of france, half of the Duchy of Burgundy consisted out of french lands, while the other half belonged to Germany. IOTL France mangaged to aquire the lands relatively easy, as the disunited Germany couldn't put up much resistance, but with an united Germany this will lead to several wars.

Quite true. Some successful wars with France (perhaps in an alliance with Britain and/or Spain) are necessary in order to successfully reassert the united HRE in its integrity. There were too many valuable areas with conflicting claims: Burgundy, Low Countries, Italy.

- The german order and poland had several wars, and some german nobles supported the german order, which led to poland supporting the hussits.

Of course, with a strong united HRE, Poland would be much less successful against the Teutonic Order. Esp. if the HRE goes Protestant, it may easily absorb the TO. Poland would likely fail to conquer West Prussia and would remain bound in the mid-1400s borders vs. the HRE-TO combo. Of course, with a HRE unification in the 1400s, Poland had already gotten quite sturdy and the moment to make the German eastern expansion any more successful than it was IOTL had long gone.

- The Ottomans were subjugating the balkans and comming closer to German lands.

True. Not to mention that if the HRE unification is sponsored by the Habsburg emperors, they shall be quite interested in pursuing the personal union between HRE and Hungary and trying to deepen it to a real union. This shall bring the Empire to the forefront of fighting Ottoman expansion in the Balkans.

All this will keep Germany concentrated on continental affairs for quite some time. Of course this unified Germany will also posses the ports of the Netherlands and Flandern, so once it becomes obvious that the oversea possesion are valuable they are likely to join.

Well, we must not forget that IOTL Spain colonized quite a vast chunk of the Americas while being quite busy in European wars vs. France, Turks, Protestants. I see no good reason why the hRE could not replicate the feat. With a powerful united HRE already around, it is quite possible that the at least some of the explorers end up sailing for the Empire. E.g. with Genoa, Venice, and Tuscany in the HRE, it is quite likely that Colombo and Vespucci end up exploring the Americas under the Imperial Eagle.
 
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Well, we must not forget that IOTL Spain colonized quite a vast chunk of the Americas while being quite busy in European wars vs. France, Turks, Protestants. I see no good reason why the hRE could not replicate the feat. With a powerful united HRE already around, it is quite possible that the at least some of the explorers end up sailing for the Empire. E.g. with Genoa, Venice, and Tuscany in the HRE, it is quite likely that Colombo and Vespucci end up exploring the Americas under the Imperial Eagle.

Or Columbus gets rejected by the HRE once, goes to Spain because all those ports he would have went to are also controlled by the HRE, gets rejected by Spain, and instead of sticking around goes to England where the Brits give him the green light.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Or Columbus gets rejected by the HRE once, goes to Spain because all those ports he would have went to are also controlled by the HRE, gets rejected by Spain, and instead of sticking around goes to England where the Brits give him the green light.

That is quite possible, too. :D Of course, this would most likely lead to a quite interesting geopolitical swap where England ends up colonizing Central and South America, where the HRE latecomers colonize North America. :cool: Seems an interesting TL scenario.
 
That is quite possible, too. :D Of course, this would most likely lead to a quite interesting geopolitical swap where England ends up colonizing Central and South America, where the HRE latecomers colonize North America. :cool: Seems an interesting TL scenario.


Maybe, maybe not. If Columbus sails from England isn't he more likely to end up in New Jersey or New York than the Caribbean?
 

Deleted member 1487

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenstaufen
Have the Hohenstaufens succeed in making the dynasty hereditary and the centralization aspect is much more reasonable far earlier. Let's say Barbarossa doesn't die on crusade (he drown when swimming in his armor!) allowing his son several more years of his father's strong hand, and hopefully more success in restoring prestige to the Imperial crown.

Split the Sicilian and German crowns into two dynasties (hopefully thanks to Barbaross having another son) like the Habsburgs and the empires can focus on their respective issues: the German half with centralization, and the Italian half with dealing with the Pope. Hopefully the early death of Henry VI would be delayed long enough for his son to grow up and so the Welf insurrection could be butterflied away, which would also mean that Frederick could also grow up in Germany instead of Sicily and focus on German issues.

Without the Great Interregnum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Interregnum
Germany would have centralized much soon and been ready for the first wave of colonization/exploration. However, the East was beckoning; it was much closer, valuable, and increasingly filled with Germans moving of their own free will.

Such are early centralization would also keep the Swiss, Dutch, Belgians, Luxembourgers, and parts of Eastern France (Burgundy) in the Empire. France would be the destabilized ones with a strong neighbor on the border aggressively defending its territory. Add to that the later French religious wars and France might be getting taken advantage of...
 

Eurofed

Banned
Maybe, maybe not. If Columbus sails from England isn't he more likely to end up in New Jersey or New York than the Caribbean?

Maybe, but quite possibly not. The man had quite set and peculiar ideas about the proper route to follow for the Indies (his biography fits the definition of "pseudoscientific loonie that ends up discovering something very important by pure accident and serendipity"), so it is quite possible that he still follows the Caribbean route. I think it is an area where we may easily have butterflies going either way.

If Columbus goes the northern route, we most likely end up with a colonization pattern most akin to OTL: England in North America, Canada quite likely English too or maybe French or HRE (which still leaves the interesting question of whom is going to win the equivalent of the French and Indian Wars). Latin America Spanish or HRE, and Brazil French or Portoguese, esp. if they leave Canada alone.

Moreover, it is quite possible that dynastic and military butterflies from HRE unification may leave Scotland and Portugal separate or in lasting union with England and Spain, which further makes the colonization pattern more complex.
 
I've only got a few seconds to write this, but I'll do it anyway lest I lose the thought:

Even if the HRE centralises, it remains a multilingual entity at its core. Language is one of the strongest indicators of culture, and in an event of nationalism developing or spreading to Europe, many ethnic groups which considered themselves German could begin to question their stance while making use of pre-HRE history. With this, those groups have an historical foundation for establishing a new identity. The trigger for this might be their different languages, as in regional discontent in OTL Catalonia.
 

Eurofed

Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hohenstaufen
Have the Hohenstaufens succeed in making the dynasty hereditary and the centralization aspect is much more reasonable far earlier. Let's say Barbarossa doesn't die on crusade (he drown when swimming in his armor!) allowing his son several more years of his father's strong hand, and hopefully more success in restoring prestige to the Imperial crown.

This is another high-probability PoD for the early unification of the HRE. Henry VI Hohenstaufen had pretty much brought, Germany, Italy, and Sicily under his thumb and gotten close ot make the HRE hereditary before his untimely death. Let Barbarossa and his son live longer, and you have a unified Germany and Italy under a hereditary monarchy headed towards progressive centralization like France and England. Frederick II would have suffered no crippling regency, and would have been eductated to deem himself a HRE emperor first and king of Sicily second, instead of the other way around.

Split the Sicilian and German crowns into two dynasties (hopefully thanks to Barbaross having another son) like the Habsburgs and the empires can focus on their respective issues: the German half with centralization, and the Italian half with dealing with the Pope.

There is no need of that (and indeed it would be self-defeating, given how much wealth and political prestige control of Italy provided. With the Low Countries, the Hansa cities, northern Italy, and Sicily, the HRE would hold the economic strongholds of Western Europe, and holding Rome gives much credence to claims of Imperial power). The Pope needs to be fought anyway, in order to accomplish centralization, since the Roman Curia feared a united Empire as a threat to its power. But if the Hohenstaufen can keep the power base established under Barbarossa and Henry VI, the Pope can be effectively dealt with, even if at least a temporary schism between a French/Angevin Pope and an Imperial Pope is likely.

Hopefully the early death of Henry VI would be delayed long enough for his son to grow up and so the Welf insurrection could be butterflied away, which would also mean that Frederick could also grow up in Germany instead of Sicily and focus on German issues.

Yep.

Without the Great Interregnum:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Interregnum
Germany would have centralized much soon and been ready for the first wave of colonization/exploration. However, the East was beckoning; it was much closer, valuable, and increasingly filled with Germans moving of their own free will.

Very true. With an Hohenstaufen centralization, expansion in the East would be rather more successful. We may easily end up with Posen and Lodz if not all of Greater Poland wholly Germanised. I would point out that the bulk of HRE expansion in the East would happen in the 13th-15th centuries, and the job for good or bad would be done when the Age of Exploration and the colonization of the Americas turn up.

Such are early centralization would also keep the Swiss, Dutch, Belgians, Luxembourgers, and parts of Eastern France (Burgundy) in the Empire.

Also the Italians and the Czechs.

France would be the destabilized ones with a strong neighbor on the border aggressively defending its territory.

Yup. At the very best France would be forever limited to its 1400s borders. No French Flanders, Artois, Lorraine, Alsace, Franche-Comte, Savoy, Nice. Quite possibly no Picardie, Burgundy, Dauphine, Provence, or Champagne.

Add to that the later French religious wars and France might be getting taken advantage of...

Well, assuming a Reform still happens. A HRE victory on the Papacy is going to send the Catholic Church on a wholly different development trajectory. A radical limitation of the Church's political power and economic privilege in a centralized HRE and limitation of Papal influence and independence on the European scene could create powerful political butterflies. The Catholic Church could develop in a way much similar to the Orthodox Church, more decentralized and run by national bishop council, and keeping its nose outside polics.
 

Deleted member 1487

Well, assuming a Reform still happens. A HRE victory on the Papacy is going to send the Catholic Church on a wholly different development trajectory. A radical limitation of the Church's political power and economic privilege in a centralized HRE and limitation of Papal influence and independence on the European scene could create powerful political butterflies. The Catholic Church could develop in a way much similar to the Orthodox Church, more decentralized and run by national bishop council, and keeping its nose outside polics.

My understanding of the French religious wars of the 13th century had nothing to do with the reformation. They were in fact more to do with religious schisms and heretical cults that the Pope would still condemn and demand that they be crushed. The French had no problems with that OTL, as what these cults represented were against the very fabric of their society (as they saw it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

I meant the earlier religious wars, though I could see the French and much of the HRE as well, falling victim to different reformists like the Calvanists because of the wider spread availability of the bible and the different interpretations that this generates.
 
There wouldn't happen to be a timeline about something akin to this on the board would there?

Somebody around here once wrote a TL about Henry VI surviving, which turned Frederick II into the badass that OTL's propaganda portrayed him as.

It got a bit whacky when Anglo-Normans under Robin Fitz Odo led a campaign against Imperial occupiers, but otherwise was pretty neat.

The Prince of Peace, IIRC.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=418&highlight="Prince+Peace"
 

Eurofed

Banned
My understanding of the French religious wars of the 13th century had nothing to do with the reformation. They were in fact more to do with religious schisms and heretical cults that the Pope would still condemn and demand that they be crushed. The French had no problems with that OTL, as what these cults represented were against the very fabric of their society (as they saw it).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

I meant the earlier religious wars, though I could see the French and much of the HRE as well, falling victim to different reformists like the Calvanists because of the wider spread availability of the bible and the different interpretations that this generates.

Oh, sorry, you were talking of the 13th French religious wars, not the 16th century ones. I had totally misunderstood you. :eek: Yep, you are right. Of course, it depends on the schedule of the HRE Centralization vs. the Albigensian Crusade. If the HRE is already largely a done deal when those wars rage, and it butterflies the Angevins and Aragon into greater success, it is quite possible that the historical fates of France and Germany-Italy end up wholly reversed. The process of French unification is wrecked, the Angevin kings effectively detach Normandy and Aquitaine from France, Aragon does likewise for Occitania, and the divided rest of France ends up an unhappy battleground for the imperial powerplays of England, Spain, and the HRE.

IMO with a centralized HRE, assuming that the the Reform isn't butterflied away because the Empire defeats the Papacy and radically curbs the power and wealth of the Church, radicals like the Calvinists would be forcibly suppressed like the Anabaptists. It is much more likely that the Emperors ally themselvesw with the moderate reformers like the Lutherans and either enforce a reform of the Church at large towards a Episcopal-Lutheran model (if they keep control of the Pope) or take the lead of the Reform, pull an Henry VIII, and create an Imperial Church.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Somebody around here once wrote a TL about Henry VI surviving, which turned Frederick II into the badass that OTL's propaganda portrayed him as.

It got a bit whacky when Anglo-Normans under Robin Fitz Odo led a campaign against Imperial occupiers, but otherwise was pretty neat.

The Prince of Peace, IIRC.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=418&highlight="Prince+Peace"

Besides the Robin Hood-William Wallace clone, it also had some ASB bits like Al-Andalus surviving and colonizing most of the Americas, and the author having much too faith in the success of guerrilla warfare in the Middle Ages, but it was otherwise pretty neat, very high quality stuff. Too bad that the author was unwilling to continue it after the death of Frederick II.
 

Deleted member 1487

As far as centralization goes, why not create a hereditary King of the Germans title/crown while maintaining the fictional Emperor is elected principle? That way the empire is made up several kingdoms and prevents the smaller German states from developing an idea that their land is a kingdom under the empire, ready to break off when they got fed up. It prevents separate identities from forming that would tear apart the empire.
 
Bizarrely enough, I was reading Engels' book on the Peasants' War this morning and found that one of the demands of many of the rebel bands was the abolition of the princes and the recognition of the Emperor as the one sovereign of the Empire. This was a reaction to the princes' increasing abuse of the peasantry in the late fifteenth and early sixteenth century, including death taxes, forced labor, prohibition on the killing of game even when it was destroying crops, et cetera. So I might recommend for a POD some fun involving Ulrich von Hutten.
 

Eurofed

Banned
As far as centralization goes, why not create a hereditary King of the Germans title/crown while maintaining the fictional Emperor is elected principle? That way the empire is made up several kingdoms and prevents the smaller German states from developing an idea that their land is a kingdom under the empire, ready to break off when they got fed up. It prevents separate identities from forming that would tear apart the empire.

There is no need to give up the Imperial title, which gives a lot of prestige, sets the Empire a ladder up towards the other monarchies of Western Europe, and makes Italy, the Low Countries, Bohemia, and Burgundy more at ease with being at union with Germany. Moreover, in a pre-modern constitution, the hereditary monarchy is probably necessary to accomplish an effective centralization. Just strip kingly titles from the major nobles as part of the centralization process, set a ceiling at being (arch/grand)duke, and you are fine. And stomping out the separatist mindest you are talking about is a very necessary component of the centralization process.
 
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