Veranda of Mecca: A Free Aceh

But even with the later happening, if their administration will be with less money, it will still mean delayed education of East Indies. However I somehow doubt it, and think that the Aceh failure can potentially save the Dutch a good bit of money (because it WAS an expensive war IOTL), so it can be blessing in disguise, both for the Dutch and DEI....

Anyway, while we can't rule out the rise of *Indonesia as a concept of polity and identity, it will likely be something not so comparable with OTL Indonesianism, especially with a failed conquest of Aceh....

The Aceh War was extremely expensive, in lives and money. It lasted for 30 years! I would think it's loss would actually be good for the Dutch, at least in that regard.

With no Aceh, I would think Indonesian nationalism would develop somewhat differently, but the rest of the NEI will still have the common experience of Dutch rule, and the example of a part of it that successfully cast it off.
 
No, I'm saying I think there are (very) limited circumstances that would induce the British to accept an Ottoman protectorate. There is an advantage in that Britain is well placed to take advantage of Ottoman rule, whereas they are totally blocked out of Dutch territory economically.

That makes it a sort of adds it to the "informal empire".

The Ottomans would have to be demonstrably able to keep it out of Russian or German hands - that might mean a treaty banning them from ceding it to anyone and giving them the right of intervention should that seem likely, for example.

I see. While I don't see Aceh going the way Peninsular Sultanates did, British influence over it can, and does seem to be will going to be paramount indeed. I see it as basically Ottomans offering Aceh to the British. However somehow I for see it as will be rather different from Zanzibar, due to Aceh's legal status as Ottoman vassal, so maybe a pinch of Ottoman formal authority....
 
I see. While I don't see Aceh going the way Peninsular Sultanates did, British influence over it can, and does seem to be will going to be paramount indeed. I see it as basically Ottomans offering Aceh to the British. However somehow I for see it as will be rather different from Zanzibar, due to Aceh's legal status as Ottoman vassal, so maybe a pinch of Ottoman formal authority....

British business are likely to be well-represented there, as is British capital to develop the country. As international treaties required the Ottomans to pursue a free-trade policy, opening Aceh markets are of benefit to every country but the Netherlands.

If it were a protectorate, the Ottomans would likely leave a small garrison there and perhaps a guard ship.
 
The Aceh War was extremely expensive, in lives and money. It lasted for 30 years! I would think it's loss would actually be good for the Dutch, at least in that regard.

With no Aceh, I would think Indonesian nationalism would develop somewhat differently, but the rest of the NEI will still have the common experience of Dutch rule, and the example of a part of it that successfully cast it off.

Yes, but it's not about the exclusion of Aceh, but about the development of NEI post-war, The loss of Aceh will likely effect the Dutch approach on their consolidation of East Indies holdings, and this should be able to make the nature of NEI as a polity ITTL somewhat different from OTL, It will be mostly about the relations between Dutch authority and the native states that will be affected by this loss.... (EDIT :while that will be something important, it's just part of a wider-scoped result, that is the level of centralization of the NEI polity)

Also, this event will also going to influence the politics in The Hague. We will need to call our Dutch experts, it seems.....
 
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This is a very cool topic, but I have nothing to add due to lack of knowledge on the subject :(
bump, though
 
So I found an old book of mine that gives a pretty good (written by a westerner, so slightly biased on that side) description on life in the archipelago during pre-colonial and colonial times. One of the chapters is "Aceh and the Perang Sibil", and it gives somewhat detailed information on the Aceh War. Much more than Wikipedia at least.

Something new I found out is that the Dutch were given permission by the British (which had a non-aggression treaty with the Acehese) to attack, because there were strong rumors that Aceh was contacting France, the Ottoman Empire, and the USA and trying to get them to invest in their nation instead of the Dutch or British. So basically the 40 year long Aceh War was a preemptive strike which failed greatly.

EDIT: Someone should totally do a TL on this, I would but unfortunately I don't have the time.
 
So I found an old book of mine that gives a pretty good (written by a westerner, so slightly biased on that side) description on life in the archipelago during pre-colonial and colonial times. One of the chapters is "Aceh and the Perang Sibil", and it gives somewhat detailed information on the Aceh War. Much more than Wikipedia at least.

Something new I found out is that the Dutch were given permission by the British (which had a non-aggression treaty with the Acehese) to attack, because there were strong rumors that Aceh was contacting France, the Ottoman Empire, and the USA and trying to get them to invest in their nation instead of the Dutch or British. So basically the 40 year long Aceh War was a preemptive strike which failed greatly.

EDIT: Someone should totally do a TL on this, I would but unfortunately I don't have the time.

If it's true, that means two things :
1) Seems to me that Ottomans will going to employ dramatic diplomatical tactics to pull British into their camp in this issue. They will have to meddle in India !
2) After Aceh successfully saved from Dutch conquest, a likely chance that British presence in Aceh won't be limited to well representation of their bussiness there. It'll be likely anyway that this Aceh will become more of a British client than Ottoman one. Acehnese pepper productions and oher crops I suspect will be dramatically affected, for better or worse, but it will still be better than the destruction under the Dutch IOTL.

Despite the number two, Aceh will still going to become the propagation center of Pan-Islamism in South East Asia region. Hopefully that the progress of Pan-Islamism from this point on will face not so much British meddling, but its interaction with British interest in Indian Ocean must be less than tense, that's for sure.


By the way, Pasha posted this thread because he is making it. It's just that the Aceh issue is just one of many changes caused by his PoD.
 
So I found an old book of mine that gives a pretty good (written by a westerner, so slightly biased on that side) description on life in the archipelago during pre-colonial and colonial times. One of the chapters is "Aceh and the Perang Sibil", and it gives somewhat detailed information on the Aceh War. Much more than Wikipedia at least.

Something new I found out is that the Dutch were given permission by the British (which had a non-aggression treaty with the Acehese) to attack, because there were strong rumors that Aceh was contacting France, the Ottoman Empire, and the USA and trying to get them to invest in their nation instead of the Dutch or British. So basically the 40 year long Aceh War was a preemptive strike which failed greatly.

EDIT: Someone should totally do a TL on this, I would but unfortunately I don't have the time.

What is the book?

As I understand it, there was an Anglo-Dutch agreement to leave Aceh alone until 1873, when a new agreement transferred Dutch interests in W. Africa and Malaya to Britain in exchange for a free hand in Aceh - so not so much British encouragement as wider interests that caused them to betray Aceh.

Later on, a British ship was wrecked on the Aceh shore and the crew was taken hostage by the Achinese, prompting a renewal of active conflict as the British demanded Dutch action to recover the hostages.

That opens up an opportunity: A canny Sultan could score a serious PR victory by having the crew turned over after being well-treated and look like he has more influence in Aceh than the Dutch. That type of thing can facilitate acceptance of the legitimacy of Ottoman claims of protectorate if the geopolitical circumstances are right, i.e. the British hard-pressed somewhere and in need of Ottoman support.
 
If it's true, that means two things :
1) Seems to me that Ottomans will going to employ dramatic diplomatical tactics to pull British into their camp in this issue. They will have to meddle in India !
2) After Aceh successfully saved from Dutch conquest, a likely chance that British presence in Aceh won't be limited to well representation of their bussiness there. It'll be likely anyway that this Aceh will become more of a British client than Ottoman one. Acehnese pepper productions and oher crops I suspect will be dramatically affected, for better or worse, but it will still be better than the destruction under the Dutch IOTL.

Despite the number two, Aceh will still going to become the propagation center of Pan-Islamism in South East Asia region. Hopefully that the progress of Pan-Islamism from this point on will face not so much British meddling, but its interaction with British interest in Indian Ocean must be less than tense, that's for sure.


By the way, Pasha posted this thread because he is making it. It's just that the Aceh issue is just one of many changes caused by his PoD.

I am at this point just discussing the Aceh idea. We'll have to see how the TL develops and if it's possible to wrest it from the Dutch. I think it's a little unlikely, and a lot would have to go right, but I'd like the possibility to be open.

Under the political and strategic realities of OTL, this would be impossible. But given a much stronger Ottoman Empire, the empire would play a more real role in the balance of power, and might me treated more like a real country than it was historically.

There's a point where Dutch failure to control Aceh for 30 years is an issue, and a real concern to British planners about the implications of a dangerous power acquiring it.
 
1) Seems to me that Ottomans will going to employ dramatic diplomatical tactics to pull British into their camp in this issue. They will have to meddle in India !

Seems to me, if the Ottomans mess around in India they've lost all hope of British support. More than that, they've put serious momentum behind a school of thought that would view the Ottomans as an outright threat to The Empire, much like Russia. Better to have someone else struggling with the British, and have the Ottomans get what they need by being quietly supportive.

Abdul:

One thing I've noticed missing from the discussion is that the triggering event for the second stage of the war - a shipwreck - is itself easily avoidable. Time is essentially on the side of the Acehnese. Delay the open conflict and you have the precursors to decolonization rumbling in the distance and Japan demonstrating itself as a Great Power.

That said, in a situation paralleling OTL's I suspect the most likely outcome is that [1] the Ottomans find that politically they can't help but try to intervene, [2] Britain is not occupied so the intervention is drastically limited and creates an awkward diplomatic situation, [3] the resulting "failure" (for everybody) shakes up the Ottoman government badly with all manner of knock-on effect, and [4] Free Aceh is viewed as a standard POD upon the invention of Alternate History.
 
Seems to me, if the Ottomans mess around in India they've lost all hope of British support. More than that, they've put serious momentum behind a school of thought that would view the Ottomans as an outright threat to The Empire, much like Russia. Better to have someone else struggling with the British, and have the Ottomans get what they need by being quietly supportive.

I never said that they have to intervene in opposition to British, let alone blatantly. However, it's to be noted that British took pro-Ottoman sentiment in India as a serious deal, and odds were there that Ottoman can use it to their advantage, for example, help easing anti-British sentiment there, for a redeeming sum, and many more possibilities.....

With an Ottoman Empire that has pretty well-placed diplomatic position by controlling two globally important sea lines and a geographic position and military power to contain Russia, and a covert network of intellegence in the form of multinational sufi orders and other religious organizations owing allegiance to the Caliph, their say regarding affairs in places with large Sunni muslim population will be important. Not saying that they will be recognized as the highest authority in India by the British, and that Ottomans can just throw an arrogant ultimatum towards them to leave the muslims alone -far from it, this will be a thrilling adventure for the Ottomans- , however, British will going to consider Ottomans an important opinion regarding muslim Indian matters, and they certainly don't want to mess up themselves in India by alienating them, eventhough if the Ottomans do disturb British position there, the Brits can always avenge it later, but this is far less profitable scenario. Also, remember that Ottomans ITTL post-Russian invasion will not be the critically wounded man of OTL, means that they are a diplomatical force to be reckogned with in Europe, and that will affect the shifting of alliances.
 
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