the Ottomans were involved in OTL but in this TL they were involved more so.
they grab Tyrol from the retreating HRE army. the emperor would settle for image purposes for no other state to fight against his authority
Venice: Dawn of a new power
- Thread starter Franciscus Caesar
- Start date
the Ottomans were involved in OTL but in this TL they were involved more so.
they grab Tyrol from the retreating HRE army. the emperor would settle for image purposes for no other state to fight against his authority
Nice start!
I see you have left an undetermined POD earlier in the timeline (Croatia). It would be better to explain it as soon as possible, in order to calculate its effects on the timeline. I would also clarify the relations between Venice and the HRE.
In his books, mainly "Dell'arte della guerra", Machiavelli supported the idea of national armies over the mercenary ones as more effective and reliable. This could lead Venice to field a permanent army, or at least few regiments.
I see you have left an undetermined POD earlier in the timeline (Croatia). It would be better to explain it as soon as possible, in order to calculate its effects on the timeline. I would also clarify the relations between Venice and the HRE.
In his books, mainly "Dell'arte della guerra", Machiavelli supported the idea of national armies over the mercenary ones as more effective and reliable. This could lead Venice to field a permanent army, or at least few regiments.
Giladis
Banned
A very interesting TL, but I have a few questions.
If the union of Hungary and Croatia never happened, Croatia would be a much more sea orientated country, since the seats of power were basically on the coast. This would requier a serious effort by the Venetians before the start of the TL to break Croatian naval power.
Also I might be nitpicking but a force of 30 000 Venetians, even with later addition of 35 000 Ottomans just does not seam likely to conquer both countries that easily. It took the Ottoman Empire many thousands of troops more on several dedicated campaigns of conquest to conquer much of that territory and still could not diliver the coup-de-grace.
I understand this is AH. but I would advise at least several military actions to achieve the results you are aiming at.
Cheers
Last edited:
Interesting idea. I had kinda forgotten about that part. Although once I read The Prince I got tired of people saying how Machiavellian George Bush was, as he was not Machiavellian, especially with that don't use mercenaries (Blackwater) bit. I won't say more on this as this is about Venice and not the War in Iraq.
This is true, and i realize i shouldn't have just breezed thru that part. however, (and this may sound wrong but just as well) i didn't have the patience to write an in depth war about Bosnia. In the next part of the TL, you can all expect a good in depth war with Portugal! again, if anyone can help with a portugese war, plz message!
or maybe another power instead/aswell. Also, about a Croatia PoD, i might be inclined to write a piece about that in the next part aswellHey people, the second part of this TL is now up and running! check it out and continue watching the rise of Venice!
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=129014
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=129014
Part 2!
As my good friend Jim has pointed out, I will post the second part so that everyone can read this great TL (Yes, i do believe its GREAT!)! Heres part 2, Enjoy!!
1516: The third year of Work on the new Ptolemaic channel has started. Estimated time of Completion: 1518
March 17, 1516: Leonardo Loredan, Doge of Venice, meets with Selim I, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, to discuss in depth the matter of the Portuguese. The Venetians will begin scouting the region, making good tactical maps and befriending native populations. They will also establish an outpost and fort at Aden, with the help of the Ottoman’s manpower and influence in the area, as well as an outpost and fort at Massawa, Tadjourah, Jizan and Al Mukalla. Also, Venice will Finance the rebuilding and refortifying of many Ottoman Forts on the Indian Ocean
April 1516: Work Starts on Forts at Aden, Massawa, Tadjourah, Al Mukalla, and Jisan.
May 19th, 1516: A Portuguese Ocean going Vessel is found off the coast of Al Mukalla. Venetian workers in the area begin to dismantle it, taking down its design and build. The plans will be sent back to Venice ASAP.
June 12th 1516: Plans of the Portuguese ship arrive in Venice. The dodge is thrilled by the plans and how well the ships design was noted. He orders 25 to be built along with another 12 Galleones.
Marco Maranazzo, Commander of the Fort at Massawa, realized that the Venetians are building forts for a reason. This reason, he imagined, is a war against the Portuguese. If so, and in any other instance, he finds it beneficial to befriend the local Ethiopian population. He sends out scouts to do so and the interaction between the two Christian peoples is an instant hit. The Ethiopians are very interested in the Fort and contributed to the building effort.
Maranazzo, realizing his success, sends out the message to all the neighbouring Venetian Forts to mimic his plan and befriend the locals.
July 1516: The Commander of the Fort of Tadjourah tries the same approach as Maranazzo. He finds his fort to be on good terms with the local Adal Sultanate; however, the Sultanate is not thrilled with the Venetians newly acquired close ally-ship with Ethiopia (enemy of Adal). The commander knows the new relationship is not as good as his neighbour to the south, but in a case of war, the Adal Sultanate will be a good ally.
1517: Ottoman Conquest of Yemen. Venetian Forts at Aden, Jisan, and Al Mukalla are surrounded by allies. None, however, as good as the Ethiopians
February 1517: A collapse in the far southern part of the Ptolemaic Channel disrupts construction, moving the date of completion to 1519. Selim I is getting frustrated with waiting for his revenge on the Portuguese, however, Loredan sees this to his advantage. His new forts are set to open around this time as well. This means Venetian ships can make their way to their newly built Forts as soon as the Channel is open.
June 1517: A number of wealthy jewish families are invited to meet in Padua to discuss business. The organizer of this meeting: Leonardo Loredan. This business: The Slave Trade. The Pope had made it immoral for Christians to sell and trade black slaves however; Loredan knew that this would be a big business. Loredan gathered wealthy Jews to manage the Venetian slave trade, under Loredan’s watch. Thus, Venice would keep the majority of all moneys brought in by the slave trade, while paying the Jewish managers a commission on each slave sold. The trade was to begin immediately and would be centered mostly at Massawa and Tadjourah.
August 1517: Marco Maranazzo’s Fort at Massawa is just past the halfway mark under its construction. Massawa is far ahead of schedule due to the vast help of the Ethiopians. Maranazzo is so confident of the Ethiopians and a war with Portugal that he feels he can (and should) mould an elite fighting force out of the Ethiopians and surrounding tribes. He will call them the Nubian Guard (which will be referred to in short as NG).
September 1517: Enrolment for the NG begins. The soldiers must be or convert to Christianity (stressed but not enforced Catholicism). They must meet gruelling physical requirements and will be trained inside the Fort of Massawa.
October 1517: The Senate puts Loredan on the spot. It appears the serenessima repubblica does have a limit to its finances and with the recent conquests of Bosnia, Croatia and the building of 5 new massive stone forts as well as the restoring of many Ottoman ones, the money in Venice is running short. Especially now since trade has not been as active now that the Portuguese have moved in. Loredan assures the senate that he has a new money making plan in action (the slave trade, though he does not say it due to the Catholic stance against it) and that the forts are being built for a good reason and that Venice will again return to its past greatness and beyond. The Senate gives Loredan 2 years to restore cash flow or he will be thrown out as Doge.
March 1518: The NG now has 50,000 members and is considered to be the most powerful army south of the Ottoman Empire. Its membership is increasing at a staggering rate and Maranazzo is confident that his fort will be able to handle any threat.
April 1518: Due to some fear of a takeover of Adal and extreme loyalty to the Venetians at Massawa, the surrounding areas including Asmara ask for addition to the Venetian “Empire”. This is the first time this context is used.
May 1518: Loredan and the Senate agree to allow the annexation of willing Eritrean territory. They also enjoy the term of “Empire” and they decide to call every Venetian possession outside the Mediterranean part of the Venetian Empire. The newly annexed area will be called l’Africa Orientale Veneziana (Venetian East Africa. In this TL, it will be referred to as AOV)
Late May 1518: the AOV begins working with the Ethiopians to harvest sugarcane and coffee (a new drink in Europe).
November 1518: Coffee is a hit in Europe. Along with the recent profits from the slave trade and the massive profits generated by the high price of coffee, and sugarcane, Loredan proves to the senate that Venice will again bring in massive revenue by whatever means necessary.
December 12th, 1518: Leonardo Loredan meets with his war council to plan out the future war with the Portuguese. They devise a five point plan:
Firstly: Lacking enough Forts, the logistics will be on Venice’s side to begin praying on Portuguese shipments in the Indian Ocean.
Secondly: As Portuguese retaliation starts, Loredan and his commanders are set that the Portuguese will expect the weak, inexperienced Arab corsairs from the battle of Diu (1509) and send few ships. They will instead, find the experienced and equally as powerful (literally due to the new Portuguese galleon replicas nearly completed in Venice) Venetian navy
Thirdly: When it comes to land battle, the Portuguese will find it extremely difficult to field large armies due to the distance from their bases
Fourthly: For whatever Portuguese armies do assemble, the Ottomans will be more than enough. Ottoman forces will also begin to be shipped to the new impenetrable Venetian Forts. The technically advanced Venetians (compared to the Ottomans), combined with the manpower of the Ottomans will be sure to destroy the Portuguese. (OTL a Portuguese commitment to support Ethiopia against the Muslims turned out as an utter failure).
Fifthly: Once the Portuguese have strained their logistic capabilities, The Venetians will take the fight to them in a massive strike against all Portuguese outposts in Africa and Asia. At the same time, spies will be sent out all around the Indian Ocean to destroy the Portuguese reputations in the local populations, giving the retreating Portuguese forces nowhere to seek safe refuge except Portugal itself!
The plan is taken to Selim I who approves.
December 25th, 1518, Leonardo Loredan gives orders to spend quite a substantial sum on building a further navy to send to the Indian Ocean once the Ptolemaic Channel is complete.
January 6th, 1519: 25 replica Portuguese galleons along with 12 Galleones are ready for battle in the Indian Ocean.
May 5th, 1519: Peace is reached between the Ottoman and Safavid empires. The Ottomans are considerably weaker than when the war started and all remaining troops are headed south to reinforce their refurbished forts, as well as provide manpower for the new Venetian forts.
May 10th, 1519: Venetian Forts at Massawa and Aden are completed.
May 25th, 1519: The remaining Venetian Forts are completed.
June 12th, 1519: Ottoman troops begin to fill Venetian Forts, giving them brute force if needed against the Portuguese.
July 2nd, 1519: The remaining orders for the Venetian navy are completed. Venice and many Venetian owned ports all around the Adriatic and Mediterranean have reached full capacity with navy craft ready for war. The majority of these ships will be drained into the Indian Ocean to fight the Portuguese when the Ptolemaic Channel is opened.
July 28th, 1519: After years of labouring the Ptolemaic Channel is finally opened. Leonardo Loredan, Doge of Venice, and Selim I, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, are extremely joyful of the completion. The Venetian navy or Venetian Armada as those in the know are calling it will split up and sail to assigned ports first thing. Profits from the Ptolemaic Channel will be split 60% to Ottomans 40% to Venetians.
September 1st, 1519: The first Portuguese replica ship il Veneziana, crosses the Ptolemaic Channel and heads to port in Aden. The Venetian Portuguese replica ships will be called the Venziana class after the original.
October 1st, 1519: The Venetian and Ottoman troops are in full position and ready for war. It is now time for the war of revenge to start. It is time for Venice to truly become, a new power…
Heres a map of the Red Sea, as this TL takes most part there
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/red_sea_87.jpg
As my good friend Jim has pointed out, I will post the second part so that everyone can read this great TL (Yes, i do believe its GREAT!
)! Heres part 2, Enjoy!!1516: The third year of Work on the new Ptolemaic channel has started. Estimated time of Completion: 1518
March 17, 1516: Leonardo Loredan, Doge of Venice, meets with Selim I, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, to discuss in depth the matter of the Portuguese. The Venetians will begin scouting the region, making good tactical maps and befriending native populations. They will also establish an outpost and fort at Aden, with the help of the Ottoman’s manpower and influence in the area, as well as an outpost and fort at Massawa, Tadjourah, Jizan and Al Mukalla. Also, Venice will Finance the rebuilding and refortifying of many Ottoman Forts on the Indian Ocean
April 1516: Work Starts on Forts at Aden, Massawa, Tadjourah, Al Mukalla, and Jisan.
May 19th, 1516: A Portuguese Ocean going Vessel is found off the coast of Al Mukalla. Venetian workers in the area begin to dismantle it, taking down its design and build. The plans will be sent back to Venice ASAP.
June 12th 1516: Plans of the Portuguese ship arrive in Venice. The dodge is thrilled by the plans and how well the ships design was noted. He orders 25 to be built along with another 12 Galleones.
Marco Maranazzo, Commander of the Fort at Massawa, realized that the Venetians are building forts for a reason. This reason, he imagined, is a war against the Portuguese. If so, and in any other instance, he finds it beneficial to befriend the local Ethiopian population. He sends out scouts to do so and the interaction between the two Christian peoples is an instant hit. The Ethiopians are very interested in the Fort and contributed to the building effort.
Maranazzo, realizing his success, sends out the message to all the neighbouring Venetian Forts to mimic his plan and befriend the locals.
July 1516: The Commander of the Fort of Tadjourah tries the same approach as Maranazzo. He finds his fort to be on good terms with the local Adal Sultanate; however, the Sultanate is not thrilled with the Venetians newly acquired close ally-ship with Ethiopia (enemy of Adal). The commander knows the new relationship is not as good as his neighbour to the south, but in a case of war, the Adal Sultanate will be a good ally.
1517: Ottoman Conquest of Yemen. Venetian Forts at Aden, Jisan, and Al Mukalla are surrounded by allies. None, however, as good as the Ethiopians
February 1517: A collapse in the far southern part of the Ptolemaic Channel disrupts construction, moving the date of completion to 1519. Selim I is getting frustrated with waiting for his revenge on the Portuguese, however, Loredan sees this to his advantage. His new forts are set to open around this time as well. This means Venetian ships can make their way to their newly built Forts as soon as the Channel is open.
June 1517: A number of wealthy jewish families are invited to meet in Padua to discuss business. The organizer of this meeting: Leonardo Loredan. This business: The Slave Trade. The Pope had made it immoral for Christians to sell and trade black slaves however; Loredan knew that this would be a big business. Loredan gathered wealthy Jews to manage the Venetian slave trade, under Loredan’s watch. Thus, Venice would keep the majority of all moneys brought in by the slave trade, while paying the Jewish managers a commission on each slave sold. The trade was to begin immediately and would be centered mostly at Massawa and Tadjourah.
August 1517: Marco Maranazzo’s Fort at Massawa is just past the halfway mark under its construction. Massawa is far ahead of schedule due to the vast help of the Ethiopians. Maranazzo is so confident of the Ethiopians and a war with Portugal that he feels he can (and should) mould an elite fighting force out of the Ethiopians and surrounding tribes. He will call them the Nubian Guard (which will be referred to in short as NG).
September 1517: Enrolment for the NG begins. The soldiers must be or convert to Christianity (stressed but not enforced Catholicism). They must meet gruelling physical requirements and will be trained inside the Fort of Massawa.
October 1517: The Senate puts Loredan on the spot. It appears the serenessima repubblica does have a limit to its finances and with the recent conquests of Bosnia, Croatia and the building of 5 new massive stone forts as well as the restoring of many Ottoman ones, the money in Venice is running short. Especially now since trade has not been as active now that the Portuguese have moved in. Loredan assures the senate that he has a new money making plan in action (the slave trade, though he does not say it due to the Catholic stance against it) and that the forts are being built for a good reason and that Venice will again return to its past greatness and beyond. The Senate gives Loredan 2 years to restore cash flow or he will be thrown out as Doge.
March 1518: The NG now has 50,000 members and is considered to be the most powerful army south of the Ottoman Empire. Its membership is increasing at a staggering rate and Maranazzo is confident that his fort will be able to handle any threat.
April 1518: Due to some fear of a takeover of Adal and extreme loyalty to the Venetians at Massawa, the surrounding areas including Asmara ask for addition to the Venetian “Empire”. This is the first time this context is used.
May 1518: Loredan and the Senate agree to allow the annexation of willing Eritrean territory. They also enjoy the term of “Empire” and they decide to call every Venetian possession outside the Mediterranean part of the Venetian Empire. The newly annexed area will be called l’Africa Orientale Veneziana (Venetian East Africa. In this TL, it will be referred to as AOV)
Late May 1518: the AOV begins working with the Ethiopians to harvest sugarcane and coffee (a new drink in Europe).
November 1518: Coffee is a hit in Europe. Along with the recent profits from the slave trade and the massive profits generated by the high price of coffee, and sugarcane, Loredan proves to the senate that Venice will again bring in massive revenue by whatever means necessary.
December 12th, 1518: Leonardo Loredan meets with his war council to plan out the future war with the Portuguese. They devise a five point plan:
Firstly: Lacking enough Forts, the logistics will be on Venice’s side to begin praying on Portuguese shipments in the Indian Ocean.
Secondly: As Portuguese retaliation starts, Loredan and his commanders are set that the Portuguese will expect the weak, inexperienced Arab corsairs from the battle of Diu (1509) and send few ships. They will instead, find the experienced and equally as powerful (literally due to the new Portuguese galleon replicas nearly completed in Venice) Venetian navy
Thirdly: When it comes to land battle, the Portuguese will find it extremely difficult to field large armies due to the distance from their bases
Fourthly: For whatever Portuguese armies do assemble, the Ottomans will be more than enough. Ottoman forces will also begin to be shipped to the new impenetrable Venetian Forts. The technically advanced Venetians (compared to the Ottomans), combined with the manpower of the Ottomans will be sure to destroy the Portuguese. (OTL a Portuguese commitment to support Ethiopia against the Muslims turned out as an utter failure).
Fifthly: Once the Portuguese have strained their logistic capabilities, The Venetians will take the fight to them in a massive strike against all Portuguese outposts in Africa and Asia. At the same time, spies will be sent out all around the Indian Ocean to destroy the Portuguese reputations in the local populations, giving the retreating Portuguese forces nowhere to seek safe refuge except Portugal itself!
The plan is taken to Selim I who approves.
December 25th, 1518, Leonardo Loredan gives orders to spend quite a substantial sum on building a further navy to send to the Indian Ocean once the Ptolemaic Channel is complete.
January 6th, 1519: 25 replica Portuguese galleons along with 12 Galleones are ready for battle in the Indian Ocean.
May 5th, 1519: Peace is reached between the Ottoman and Safavid empires. The Ottomans are considerably weaker than when the war started and all remaining troops are headed south to reinforce their refurbished forts, as well as provide manpower for the new Venetian forts.
May 10th, 1519: Venetian Forts at Massawa and Aden are completed.
May 25th, 1519: The remaining Venetian Forts are completed.
June 12th, 1519: Ottoman troops begin to fill Venetian Forts, giving them brute force if needed against the Portuguese.
July 2nd, 1519: The remaining orders for the Venetian navy are completed. Venice and many Venetian owned ports all around the Adriatic and Mediterranean have reached full capacity with navy craft ready for war. The majority of these ships will be drained into the Indian Ocean to fight the Portuguese when the Ptolemaic Channel is opened.
July 28th, 1519: After years of labouring the Ptolemaic Channel is finally opened. Leonardo Loredan, Doge of Venice, and Selim I, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire, are extremely joyful of the completion. The Venetian navy or Venetian Armada as those in the know are calling it will split up and sail to assigned ports first thing. Profits from the Ptolemaic Channel will be split 60% to Ottomans 40% to Venetians.
September 1st, 1519: The first Portuguese replica ship il Veneziana, crosses the Ptolemaic Channel and heads to port in Aden. The Venetian Portuguese replica ships will be called the Venziana class after the original.
October 1st, 1519: The Venetian and Ottoman troops are in full position and ready for war. It is now time for the war of revenge to start. It is time for Venice to truly become, a new power…
Heres a map of the Red Sea, as this TL takes most part there
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/red_sea_87.jpg
Well i did so because i cant seem to work photobucket
anyways it kinda doesn't show up well as there are many possessions in India, Africa, and Indonesia which cannot easily be seenWell i did so because i cant seem to work photobucket
For normal posts, you can just attach from your pc, you dont need a photobucket
.For normal posts, you can just attach from your pc, you dont need a photobucket
yes but they have to be a certain size, mine are all too big
Venice: Dawn of a new Power: Pt. 3
Part 3, same applies as the first 2, enjoy, comment, suggest and thanks for the help (you know who u are). Scenarios and suggestions for the future are especially welcome!
Venice: Dawn of a new Power, Part 3
October 24th, 1519, 12:30 P.M off the coast of Yemen…
Pvt. Heitor Cequira is on a Portuguese carrack from Bahrain destined for Lisbon. It is carrying a cargo of Pearls. This carrack, however, will not make its destination.
12:30a.m: Cequira looks of the side of the ship. Most of the men are sleeping but this young man (20 years of age), is excited to the extreme. Cequira has been in love with the sea since he was born and brought up on the northern coast of Portugal. He has big dreams of one day becoming commander of a whole ship and claiming greatness for his native Portugal.
12:35a.m: As Cequira blankly yet satisfactorily looks out into the dark wide open Ocean to his front; he notices the moon catching the bristling movement of something. The object nears and Cequira can make out the ships flag ever so slightly. It is Venetian! He gathers that it is just headed home along the same route as them. Then a thought strikes him hard… Venice has no colonies in the Indian Ocean, why are they headed south?
12:38a.m: Cerquira does not know whether it might be a stray Venetian Ship and whether to get his commanders. He decides to watch the ships movements to determine its threat level.
12:40a.m: The Venetian ship is along side the Portuguese. Ceguira senses no danger, just curiosity. He never knew the Venetians had such big ships; after all, they are in the Mediterranean
12:41a.m: Cequira becomes nervous about the whole situation. He finds no threat in this vessel yet he finds no legality in its being here. He finally realizes why he was nervous… this vessel exactly resembles a Portuguese vessel! He turns to alert the Captain when a bright light tears apart the darkness. The flash is immediately followed by a thunderous bang then darkness. Cequira regains consciousness only to find himself laying on the ground with pain all through his body. He looks to the side of him and sees a whole in the side of the ship. It then hits him; the Venetian ship is looking for a fight.
November 16th, 1519: The monopoly that Admiral Afonso de Albuquerque established in the Indian Ocean for Portugal has recently been experiencing a loss of treasure ships. Many ships destined for a port now never get there and this has lead to a loss of many men and a massive amount of profits. Manuel I, king of Portugal, has called a meeting with his war ministers to talk about the subject. This sudden meeting was sparked by the heaviest blow the Portuguese monopoly: a ship full of pearls from Bahrain was supposed to dock in Lisbon last week. It never came.
Just as Manuel I and his ministers begin the discussion, he is notified of something of great importance: There is a survivor from the pearl ship! The survivor is immediately summoned to the king’s side and tells him everything. He says his name is Heitor Cequira and he describes what happened that night. Heitor tells the king that a large Venetian ship of which looked identical to a Portuguese one attacked them in the night. The Portuguese ship was heavy with goods and therefore slower than the Venetian ship, which out manoeuvred it. Cerquira goes on to say that a second Venetian ship appeared quickly after and the Portuguese ship didn’t have a fighting chance. He is the only survivor, drifting on a piece of wood into Portuguese territory and being saved by his fellow countrymen.
Manuel I is furious with the news and wastes no time in declaring war against the Venetians. He and his war ministers don’t leave the meeting after the news from Cequira, instead they decide on a strategy to crush the Venetians. Manuel and his ministers understand that for the presence of Venetians to be possible in the Indian Ocean, they must have forts. A Portuguese scouting force is immediately dispatched. Manuel is also aware of the close alliance the Ottomans share with the Venetians and after this thought he is immediately confident about the future of the war. He realizes that this is revenge for the battle of Diu, in which he defeated both powers in 1509. He recalls how weak the Ottoman and Mamluk fleets were and therefore has the scouting fleet armed with a comparatively small force. He also makes it that the Portuguese shall progress on the war the same as in 1509. He has his navy get ready to sail into the Indian Ocean. His plan: attack all Venetian/ Ottoman forts and takeaway their ability to fight.
Thus, the Veneto-Portuguese war commences
In Europe…
After the death of Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor in early January 1519, jealousies and anger arise around the successor to the Holy Roman crown. This causes France and Spain to remain mostly neutral while watching the other to get involved in Venetian alliances as of now. Venice on the other hand, is very anxious to create alliances. The first priority, keep the Portuguese from attacking the Venetian heartland.
November 31st, 1519: A Venetian envoy is sent to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (Charles I of Spain) to discuss the terms. The envoy suggests that the lands of the Venetian south (Apulia), be Ceded with special privileges (Apulia was Venice’s bread basket. The terms allow for Venice to purchase from Apulia for a fraction of the true price) to Spain for Spanish neutrality and Spain to block off all Portuguese entrance to the Mediterranean during the war. It also calls for Spain to Cede Malta to Venice. Charles V agrees to this to this and Spain quickly moves into its new territory whilst blocking the passage to the Mediterranean for Portuguese vessels.
The envoy then moves to France to offer it a deal. The envoy meets with Francis I of France and offers him a deal. Venice will support a French war with Milan, and be top Italian ally of France IF, France was to support Venice in a war with Portugal and lend military support to the cause. Francis I, is obsessed with claiming Milan for himself. He also has a growing personal vendetta for Portugal because of their growing power and support for Spain, whose king is asserting claims on the Holy Roman Thrown, just as Francis I is doing. Francis I agrees and becomes a top military ally of Venice. The French navy sails thru the Ptolemaic Channel and into the red sea, docking at the Venetian Forts at Aden, Massawa, Tadjourah, Al Mukalla, and Jisan. Together with French naval support, and Ottoman man power, Loredan is very eager to start the fighting. He is extremely confident in him and his allies’ abilities.
Manuel I sends out a wave of Portuguese naval power. It is made up of conservative yet confident numbers due to how easy it was for the Portuguese to destroy the ottomans and allies at Diu.
for those of you who have followed from the very beginning (Thank you for your support) and may be getting a bit frustrated with reading about a war that seems to never happen, next TL is the war, I GUARANTEE IT!
Part 3, same applies as the first 2, enjoy, comment, suggest and thanks for the help (you know who u are). Scenarios and suggestions for the future are especially welcome!
Venice: Dawn of a new Power, Part 3
October 24th, 1519, 12:30 P.M off the coast of Yemen…
Pvt. Heitor Cequira is on a Portuguese carrack from Bahrain destined for Lisbon. It is carrying a cargo of Pearls. This carrack, however, will not make its destination.
12:30a.m: Cequira looks of the side of the ship. Most of the men are sleeping but this young man (20 years of age), is excited to the extreme. Cequira has been in love with the sea since he was born and brought up on the northern coast of Portugal. He has big dreams of one day becoming commander of a whole ship and claiming greatness for his native Portugal.
12:35a.m: As Cequira blankly yet satisfactorily looks out into the dark wide open Ocean to his front; he notices the moon catching the bristling movement of something. The object nears and Cequira can make out the ships flag ever so slightly. It is Venetian! He gathers that it is just headed home along the same route as them. Then a thought strikes him hard… Venice has no colonies in the Indian Ocean, why are they headed south?
12:38a.m: Cerquira does not know whether it might be a stray Venetian Ship and whether to get his commanders. He decides to watch the ships movements to determine its threat level.
12:40a.m: The Venetian ship is along side the Portuguese. Ceguira senses no danger, just curiosity. He never knew the Venetians had such big ships; after all, they are in the Mediterranean
12:41a.m: Cequira becomes nervous about the whole situation. He finds no threat in this vessel yet he finds no legality in its being here. He finally realizes why he was nervous… this vessel exactly resembles a Portuguese vessel! He turns to alert the Captain when a bright light tears apart the darkness. The flash is immediately followed by a thunderous bang then darkness. Cequira regains consciousness only to find himself laying on the ground with pain all through his body. He looks to the side of him and sees a whole in the side of the ship. It then hits him; the Venetian ship is looking for a fight.
November 16th, 1519: The monopoly that Admiral Afonso de Albuquerque established in the Indian Ocean for Portugal has recently been experiencing a loss of treasure ships. Many ships destined for a port now never get there and this has lead to a loss of many men and a massive amount of profits. Manuel I, king of Portugal, has called a meeting with his war ministers to talk about the subject. This sudden meeting was sparked by the heaviest blow the Portuguese monopoly: a ship full of pearls from Bahrain was supposed to dock in Lisbon last week. It never came.
Just as Manuel I and his ministers begin the discussion, he is notified of something of great importance: There is a survivor from the pearl ship! The survivor is immediately summoned to the king’s side and tells him everything. He says his name is Heitor Cequira and he describes what happened that night. Heitor tells the king that a large Venetian ship of which looked identical to a Portuguese one attacked them in the night. The Portuguese ship was heavy with goods and therefore slower than the Venetian ship, which out manoeuvred it. Cerquira goes on to say that a second Venetian ship appeared quickly after and the Portuguese ship didn’t have a fighting chance. He is the only survivor, drifting on a piece of wood into Portuguese territory and being saved by his fellow countrymen.
Manuel I is furious with the news and wastes no time in declaring war against the Venetians. He and his war ministers don’t leave the meeting after the news from Cequira, instead they decide on a strategy to crush the Venetians. Manuel and his ministers understand that for the presence of Venetians to be possible in the Indian Ocean, they must have forts. A Portuguese scouting force is immediately dispatched. Manuel is also aware of the close alliance the Ottomans share with the Venetians and after this thought he is immediately confident about the future of the war. He realizes that this is revenge for the battle of Diu, in which he defeated both powers in 1509. He recalls how weak the Ottoman and Mamluk fleets were and therefore has the scouting fleet armed with a comparatively small force. He also makes it that the Portuguese shall progress on the war the same as in 1509. He has his navy get ready to sail into the Indian Ocean. His plan: attack all Venetian/ Ottoman forts and takeaway their ability to fight.
Thus, the Veneto-Portuguese war commences
In Europe…
After the death of Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor in early January 1519, jealousies and anger arise around the successor to the Holy Roman crown. This causes France and Spain to remain mostly neutral while watching the other to get involved in Venetian alliances as of now. Venice on the other hand, is very anxious to create alliances. The first priority, keep the Portuguese from attacking the Venetian heartland.
November 31st, 1519: A Venetian envoy is sent to Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor (Charles I of Spain) to discuss the terms. The envoy suggests that the lands of the Venetian south (Apulia), be Ceded with special privileges (Apulia was Venice’s bread basket. The terms allow for Venice to purchase from Apulia for a fraction of the true price) to Spain for Spanish neutrality and Spain to block off all Portuguese entrance to the Mediterranean during the war. It also calls for Spain to Cede Malta to Venice. Charles V agrees to this to this and Spain quickly moves into its new territory whilst blocking the passage to the Mediterranean for Portuguese vessels.
The envoy then moves to France to offer it a deal. The envoy meets with Francis I of France and offers him a deal. Venice will support a French war with Milan, and be top Italian ally of France IF, France was to support Venice in a war with Portugal and lend military support to the cause. Francis I, is obsessed with claiming Milan for himself. He also has a growing personal vendetta for Portugal because of their growing power and support for Spain, whose king is asserting claims on the Holy Roman Thrown, just as Francis I is doing. Francis I agrees and becomes a top military ally of Venice. The French navy sails thru the Ptolemaic Channel and into the red sea, docking at the Venetian Forts at Aden, Massawa, Tadjourah, Al Mukalla, and Jisan. Together with French naval support, and Ottoman man power, Loredan is very eager to start the fighting. He is extremely confident in him and his allies’ abilities.
Manuel I sends out a wave of Portuguese naval power. It is made up of conservative yet confident numbers due to how easy it was for the Portuguese to destroy the ottomans and allies at Diu.
for those of you who have followed from the very beginning (Thank you for your support) and may be getting a bit frustrated with reading about a war that seems to never happen, next TL is the war, I GUARANTEE IT!
Raymann
Banned
Pretty good so far. One little snippet though.
Henry VIII was King of England by now and in the OTL he used the distractions France had in Italy to betray them (I guess not betray here because there is no Cambrai League) and attack Northern France.
But I still don't see a reason he wouldn't do it here also.
Henry VIII was King of England by now and in the OTL he used the distractions France had in Italy to betray them (I guess not betray here because there is no Cambrai League) and attack Northern France.
But I still don't see a reason he wouldn't do it here also.
exactly, no League of Cambrai. But even if there was, thank you for pointing that out! I would try to destroy that as soon as possible, i don't want anything stopping Frances aide to Venice. Except a war with Spain (which is gonna happen!)
Like I said before, a good part with a fairly obscure spark to the upcoming war. If Portugal wins the war I could see huge gains as the whole thing was caused by Venetian Jingoism and the casus belli was completely soaked in Venetian agression. Though, with an alliance like that, I dont think youre intending a portugese victory...
Like I said before, a good part with a fairly obscure spark to the upcoming war. If Portugal wins the war I could see huge gains as the whole thing was caused by Venetian Jingoism and the casus belli was completely soaked in Venetian agression. Though, with an alliance like that, I dont think youre intending a portugese victory...
haha not likely gonna happen! But yea, if portugal manages to pull out a win, that would probably mean the end for the serene republic, however... i see an end to the republic in the future anyways, correct Jim
Some unlikely things, mainly in the nuts and bolts of stuff.
-Reverse engineering something is never as simple as just having a copy on hand, as how are you going to derive the skills that go into building and operating it? Not to mention during the time the Venetians are figuring out the galleon and losing sailors on the high seas to run it the Portuguese will be improving their designs.
-That Canal got built ridiculously fast considering the difficulties of that environment - built faster than the Suez without explosives, tropical medicines, or that many ships to shuttle water?
-Spain was the one with 'treasure ships' not Portugal.
-The Slave trade most certainly isn't profitable yet, you need time for the Amerindian forced labour to be killed off and the Caribbean doesn't become a market for nearly a century. Additionally the East African slave trade is already pretty well cornered by Islamic merchants, not to mention the lower population densities on the East Coast restricting supplies.
-Reverse engineering something is never as simple as just having a copy on hand, as how are you going to derive the skills that go into building and operating it? Not to mention during the time the Venetians are figuring out the galleon and losing sailors on the high seas to run it the Portuguese will be improving their designs.
-That Canal got built ridiculously fast considering the difficulties of that environment - built faster than the Suez without explosives, tropical medicines, or that many ships to shuttle water?
-Spain was the one with 'treasure ships' not Portugal.
-The Slave trade most certainly isn't profitable yet, you need time for the Amerindian forced labour to be killed off and the Caribbean doesn't become a market for nearly a century. Additionally the East African slave trade is already pretty well cornered by Islamic merchants, not to mention the lower population densities on the East Coast restricting supplies.
What? Do you mean under market value or under production value, either of which is pretty unlikely without considerable arm twisting in Apulia.
Y would u do that? go and degrade my hole TL. whatever, i respect that (tho my ego is bruised). now, allow me to answer ur questioins:
Galleon: Venice did as the romans did when they found a ship from the fleet of Carthage. copied it and built replicas. you say Portugal is perfecting it? what is to stop Venice from doing so? also, Portugal has too much shit to deal with right now to think about improving the design.
Suez: I remember reading that there was an existing canal there. im sure an Ottoman Venetian force could EXPAND the existing canal in 5 years!
Treasure ships: they needed something to get goods home
Slave Trade: The slave trade Was profitable at that time! The maritime town of Lagos, Portugal, was the first slave market created in Portugal for the sale of imported African slaves - the Mercado de Escravos, opened in 1444. In 1441, the first slaves were brought to Portugal from northern Mauritania. Prince Henry the Navigator, major sponsor of the Portuguese African expeditions, as of any other merchandise, taxed one fifth of the selling price of the slaves imported to Portugal. By the year 1552 black African slaves made up 10 percent of the population of Lisbon. pretty sure that answers ur question. Venice can get into the trade
Market Value is what i meant. Spain will cover additional costs so no arm bending. their getting over 5 major towns, they can AT LEAST do that.
is it a fact that the population density in the east was low. if so, that can work to my advantage in a later part of the TL.