Venice and the HRE

This isn't an ATL, but rather a question about real history: why was Venice able to resist the Holy Roman Empire, when everyone else around them bowed to the Emperor? Later, of course, Venice was a medium-sized empire, far more powerful than most of the other Italian states - but in the early and mid-Middle Ages, Venice was just a city-state like any other, richer perhaps than most, but not extra special like it became later.
 
For one thing, Byzantium was a nominal Byzantine sovereign, and its location on islands in a malarial swamp made attacks tricky.
 
And besides, you may overestimate the central power of the HRE. When it was still strong, there were opponents with higher priority. And later...
 

Susano

Banned
Well, Venice also become nominally independant in the 11th century. I suppose if the Emperor had wanted, he could have tried to conquer Venice, with Genoas and Pisas support - but what for? The pre-interregnum Emperors had enough trouble with the Lombard cities as it was, and the post-interregnum Emperors didnt care for Italy anymore.
 
Well, Venice also become nominally independant in the 11th century. I suppose if the Emperor had wanted, he could have tried to conquer Venice, with Genoas and Pisas support - but what for? The pre-interregnum Emperors had enough trouble with the Lombard cities as it was, and the post-interregnum Emperors didnt care for Italy anymore.

Is it possible that Italy could leave the HRE entirely after a victory against Fredrick I? The Iron Crown of Lombardy would have to go to someone else, obviously.

Given that one basic purpose in subduing northern Italy was to refill the Empire's coffers, perhaps the Emperor could be bought off in a Papal-blessed face-saving peace.
 

Susano

Banned
Not really possible, as at that time the de facto (if notd e jure) the Imperial Crown was connecte dwith the Crown of Italy... usually there was a triple coronation: Upon the death of the Emperor, his heir elected beforehand, the so-called Roman King, would be crowned German King and then make his way to Rome to be crowned King of Italy there, and then Roman Emperor.

It was more then just money, it was the imperial claim.
 
It was more then just money, it was the imperial claim.

When Venice had taken the Veneto and parts of the Po valley, what became of those lands and cities status as part of the Empire and Imperial Crown, legally speaking?
 

Susano

Banned
When Venice had taken the Veneto and parts of the Po valley, what became of those lands and cities status as part of the Empire and Imperial Crown, legally speaking?

The same as lands conquered by France - they werent part of the Empire anymore. But when Venice began its Terra Ferma policy, that was when the Emprie already didnt care about Italy anymore and what I said above wasnt true anymore - instead, there were only the seven electors anymore and only one coronation.

In a way it can be argued that even though Italy only left the HRE as part of the Westphalian Peace that the Italian states werent part of the HRE anymore long before already. For example, when the HRE began its Imperial circles organisation, only Germany was thusly organsied, not Italy, and certainly no Italian estate would have thought of calling onto the Imperial Court or somesuch.
 
When Venice had taken the Veneto and parts of the Po valley, what became of those lands and cities status as part of the Empire and Imperial Crown, legally speaking?

They left it, in the same way France's conquests left the Empire.
 
The same as lands conquered by France - they werent part of the Empire anymore. But when Venice began its Terra Ferma policy, that was when the Emprie already didnt care about Italy anymore and what I said above wasnt true anymore - instead, there were only the seven electors anymore and only one coronation.

In a way it can be argued that even though Italy only left the HRE as part of the Westphalian Peace that the Italian states werent part of the HRE anymore long before already. For example, when the HRE began its Imperial circles organisation, only Germany was thusly organsied, not Italy, and certainly no Italian estate would have thought of calling onto the Imperial Court or somesuch.

But wasn't Milan claimed by the Habsburgs because the Emperor was considered its legal overlord? In the same way, when the legitimate line of the D'Este family died out in Ferrara, the illegitimate heir was recognized by the Emperor in Modena and Reggio (althought not in Ferrara, a Papal fief). I don't think that later Emperors were not interested in Italy, I think the better way to say this is that they were only interested in Italy when it was important to them, as during the war of Mantuan succession, for example, or the Italian Wars.
 

Susano

Banned
Well, I guess... but its an example of the Habsburgs trying (sucessfully in the end) to use their imperial title to extend their household power, and not to establish imperial power in Italy...
 
I seem to recall that the HRE did attempt to invade Venice a few times during the 800-900s and failed miserably, mostly due to literally getting bogged down in the swamps. Venice is surprisingly defensible, especially when you've got the Byzantine navy at your back.
 
In a way it can be argued that even though Italy only left the HRE as part of the Westphalian Peace

No doubt about the de-facto situation - but did the Westphalian Peace really provide that?
I seem to remember that the status of "Imperial Italy" did not change nominally -
save, of course, the French conquests around Pinnerolo.
 

Susano

Banned
Err, I couldnt cite you an article in the Peace, but on all maps Ive seen the 1648 borders do exclude Italy, with the exception of Savoy (that is Savoy proper as part of Savoy/Piedmont) as a curious exclave (that eventually, I dont know in what treaty, also left the Empire)
 
Nah, that happened before. Don't ask me for details, better check the history of the individual states. In the peace of 1648, Switzerland and the Netherlands officially left the HRE (which they had de facto already).
 
Top