Vaucanson, Jacqaurd, and NC Machining.

[MacCaulay]

I was reading a magazine at the machine shop today and it had an article about a Frenchman by the name of Jacques de Vaucanson. Apparently he was big into automatons and other gadgets, which to be honest I'm not that interested in.

I was reading the article because he invented the all metal slide rest lathe, as I'm a set-up man on lathes and that's really what I was looking for in the magazine. So in any case, the article mentioned Vaucanson's work with the lathe, and how he more or less perfected it decades before it was popularized at the gunworks in Britain by Maudsley.

This is all well and good, and I could go on and on about how interesting that is to someone like me. This guy was making lathes like a sonofabitch, and all-metal ones too.

Then something at the end of the article blew me away: Vaucanson died while he was working on regulating the French silk industry. He had designed a mechanical loom that more or less took manual weaving out of the equation and only had the person load it. (So? Why is this important? You ask.)
The concept was that punch cards would be fed through the top, giving a modicum of control to the speed and movement of the loom.

Enter Joseph Marie Jacquard: this man took Vaucanson's design and improved on it, taking multiple punch cards and putting them together into a string with each line on a card representing a line of pattern that the loom prints out.

For the machinists in the audience: in 1801, Vaucanson and Joseph Marie Jacquard invented a proto-NC tape machine.


NC is short for Numerical Coding, or the use of a code to tell a tool (in that case a loom) where to move and how. It was the precursor to CNC, or Computer Numerical Coding which allowed modern flight control surfaces of helicopters and jets to be built with accuracy and repetition. (literally: CNC was actually invented by a man who had a USAF helicopter contract from Sikorsky)

What Jacqaurd (or anyone else for that matter) didn't seem to put together for many decades was that the same punched cards that could move a loom (or a player piano) in incredibly precise and intricate steps could also be used for a lathe. Vaucanson was one of the few men who seemed to have both ideas at once, but he never put them together.

I don't really have any grand POD for this, but I thought I'd throw this out there for you guys to nibble at.

 

[Fearless Leader]

Wow...quantum advances in both computing and machine tools in the 18th century.

Sounds like a perfect recipe for a techno-wank/steampunk scenario if you ask me.

 

[Hendryk]

I'm glad to see French innovators get their fair share of attention for a change. A long time ago I'd also brought up the AH potential of men like Papin and Niepce. Though to be fair Thande did find suitable use for Cugnot and Lavoisier in LTTW.

 

[Shawn Endresen]

Hm...just how quickly and cheaply can you make a rifle and cannon using a Vaucanson-Jacquard lathe during the Napoleonic Wars?

 

[MacCaulay]

Hm...just how quickly and cheaply can you make a rifle and cannon using a Vaucanson-Jacquard lathe during the Napoleonic Wars?

Well, first off I'm going at this from the point of view of a machinist, not as a Napoleonic historian so if something sounds off it's because I'm coming at this from the perspective of a machinist before anything else.


You can make rifle a barrel easily using NC, even easier and more reliably than manual rifling. Rifling is really just a form of tapping, or putting threads into metal. The external machining process of this is called threading, and can be seen on screws. But I digress...These cards allow for precise movements, but usually on just one axis at a time. The best way to explain this is to imagine Pac-Man moving through his maze. He never moves diagonally, only up, down, or left and right. So what we'd have is something akin to a steam powered machine (probably lathes and verticals) that move like Pac-Man games.
It the case of machining, that's either on the X, Y, or Z axis. Now there are obviously certain...restrictions: any movements done during machining to adjust the dimensions of the part must be done to the tools themselves, or to the fixture that holds the part you're machining.
If not, then they must be done to the work offsets: these are the base numbers that the machine uses to tell itself where it is. It's impossible to make individual tool adjustments in the machine unless there's a computer present to manage it.

But that's fine: in the American Civil War, cannons and rifles were mass-produced by the tens of thousands using manual machines with bits and pieces of what would later become NC machining.

What this is doing is refining mass production. You can now write a program on punch cards to drill...say...5 holes and 1 tap in a part where before you would have to have 2 different machinists do that, one after the other.

 

[Just Leo]

Kurt Vonnegut's first novel, Player Piano, was about the dystopia of automation and capitolism. The finest craftsman does his finest work, copied on a punchcard, and is turned out onto the street.

 

[MacCaulay]

Kurt Vonnegut's first novel, Player Piano, was about the dystopia of automation and capitolism. The finest craftsman does his finest work, copied on a punchcard, and is turned out onto the street.

Well, you can go into a machine shop and tell them that the CNC lathes or milling machines they're using are stealing their skills and see how they take it. Mostly, I think they'll suggest that perhaps then you'd like to climb into the machine and do some drilling and tapping.

Speaking as a machinist: Fuck Manual Labour. If I can just type in G56 ZO X -.04 and a feedrate, then I'll do it. These programs are literally tens of thousands of characters long. The parts that I ran at work today would've taken dozens of different operations if they were done manually but I was able to run 12 parts in a night by myself.

It's still a skilled job, but I'm not in there drilling every hole with my own two hands. Hell with that. I've got a machine doing that for me, and with a lot more accuracy.

 

[MacCaulay]

I just wanted to apologize to you, Leo: I was at work and I kind of realized that what I said could be taken as a very dick thing to say. As a machinist, I'd much rather be doing work on a CNC lathe as opposed to a manual one as it takes a lot of the guess work out of my job and replaces it with repeatability and speed.




Also...everyone seems to want to figure out ways to speed up technology. I came up with a way to do it and even explained how it could be done and there's less than half a dozen posts? What's up with that? Did I not pitch this right for the pre-1900 board?

 

[e of pi]

Also...everyone seems to want to figure out ways to speed up technology. I came up with a way to do it and even explained how it could be done and there's less than half a dozen posts? What's up with that? Did I not pitch this right for the pre-1900 board?

I'll say that while I found the POD idea interesting, I don't know about machining's techniques and history to predict anything. If someone put these pieces together in the way you describe, what could it be used for?

If Side A can get this and make better and more guns or something than they did in War B, then they beat Side C in a war that they couldn't have won OTL. Depending on your values inserted for Side A, War B, and Side C, and that period, there's a lot of potential for any number of major butterflies. Maybe it's just too many possibilities, too many ways to approach it for people to start discussing readily?

 

[Fearless Leader]

I think this idea's problem is it's a bit too "out there" for the average reader. People can't see how having a NC Lathe in the late 18th century affects the overall course of history in general, and have few reference points to discern it's ripple effects.

But hey, how 'bout I get the ball rolling?

OK let's say that our POD is Vaucanson living a bit longer (let's say 5 years), his plans for looms were turned down by the industry so he opts for a new project. Putting two and two together he incorporates his recent ideas re: Looms into his past lathe projects. He comes up with the Vaucanson Lathe at the end of his life, but like his loom, he fails to market it properly. The lathe itself is stowed away safely and is regarded as a curiosity if nothing else.

Fast forward to the first decade of the 19th century and Jacquard discovers Vaucanson's lathe along with his automated loom. Jaquard immediately recognizes the potential of the lathe and it remains one of his pet projects and he makes a few improvements on it while spending most of his time on the loom. When Napoleon comes to visit Lyon to inspect Jacquard's loom, he is not only impressed by the loom but also by Jacquard's improved version of the Vaucanson Lathe. Old Nappy seizes on the idea and orders it's adoption for the manufacture of armaments.

So what does this mean?

1) Well, in the short run it probably means that French artillery and small arms are of a much higher quality and quantity than in OTL. Though not enough IMO to turn the tide of the Napoleonic Wars, it might change a few things.

2) The ability to easily produce rifled small arms and artillery creates a need to produce ammunition suitable for such guns. This necessity may just lead to the earlier introduction of a Minie Ball or rough equivalent earlier.

Let's say for the sake of argument #1 happens immediately and #2 happens too late to have an outcome on the war itself. However the French do start fielding mass produced rifled muskets and artillery by war's end. Following the Napoleonic Wars there is a mass arms race/machine race to get the arms industries of the major powers up to speed. This could very well kickstart the industrial revolution, and with the increased precision afforded by an NC lathe give it a bit more get up and go.

Fast forward a couple MORE years and the punch cards of the industrial revolution catch the eye of a young Charles Babbage who begins working on his infamous Analytical Engine...

BOOM history's changed completely, you've got the Industrial Revolution running a couple decades ahead of schedule, mechanical computers in the 1830's/40's. Rifled weapons becoming widespread by the 1820's etc.

And that's not even scratching the surface, I'm sure there are dozens of other applications. Take for example the manufacture of screw propellers, I'd imagine an NC machine would make designing and manufacturing those a hell of a lot easier!

 

[Shawn Endresen]

Sorry, MacCaulay: I think there's lots of interest, but yes, we're going to have to poke a while to see what to do with it (and as the originator of the idea you of course have first dibs).

Everyone, me included went to artillery first because, well, we're that sort of people. But if I understand it correctly, it's actually not going to be much cheaper or faster to manufacture armaments for the first 10 years (the Napoleonic Wars), in part because the number of people trained to operate V-J lathes will be small (I'm thinking punch-card programming doesn't actually have a lot to do with machining as practiced in 1800, so it'll be a generation before there's a large number of personnel to do it). The idea about greater demand speeding up the minie ball is interesting. What has happened is actually that a large bloc of skilled labor has suddenly been freed up instead; making rifle barrels (which, let's face it, is profitable but tedious work for skilled artisans, at least on the scale an army requires) can now be done with the casual attention of one guy instead of the constant attention of two (I figure one person can oversee many V-J lathes if they're operating the same program to produce the same product). All those machinists who AREN'T trained on V-J lathes can now go do something else (shipbuilding? The screw propeller idea has promise too. Cue the Sea Mammal of Infamy).

So I suspect we see the Napoleonics with only minor butterflies - but 1815 France now has closed the gap with Britain in industrialisation and may actually lap it. Things really explode, though, when we get punch card programmers who were never machinists first - and realize that the basic technique can be applied to a great many devices.

 

[Azardin]

This thread is a wonderful idea-resource for me, and gives significant fodder for my own novel.

I'm glad to see French innovators get their fair share of attention for a change. A long time ago I'd also brought up the AH potential of men like Papin and Niepce. Though to be fair Thande did find suitable use for Cugnot and Lavoisier in LTTW.

Do you personally know of any more? There must be a good number of French innovators that made some of the same things that Anglo-Americans were credited with but just didn't end up with the credit in the Anglosphere.

Now that I think about it, most of the inventors I've learned about in school (HS, which was years ago, so my memory is slightly hazy) were either Americans or Something-Americans.

As a machinist, I'd much rather be doing work on a CNC lathe as opposed to a manual one as it takes a lot of the guess work out of my job and replaces it with repeatability and speed.

You say that now, with the benefit of hindsight, but could perhaps there be some Luddite-style movements against such a development? I mean if a high official (Napoleon or whomever) were to introduce this top-down, then there wouldn't be as much effective backlash. Were it introduced bottom-up, however, there might be more room for sabotage perhaps?

Also...everyone seems to want to figure out ways to speed up technology. I came up with a way to do it and even explained how it could be done and there's less than half a dozen posts? What's up with that? Did I not pitch this right for the pre-1900 board?

I think this idea's problem is it's a bit too "out there" for the average reader. People can't see how having a NC Lathe in the late 18th century affects the overall course of history in general, and have few reference points to discern it's ripple effects.

Also perhaps because it's not a typically hyped technological avenue, is why it hasn't quite caught on. However, lathes are tremendously useful and while I cannot quite speak on the exact rate of technological improvement that it would spur, it would have to have some effect.

When Napoleon comes to visit Lyon to inspect Jacquard's loom, he is not only impressed by the loom but also by Jacquard's improved version of the Vaucanson Lathe. Old Nappy seizes on the idea and orders it's adoption for the manufacture of armaments.

So what does this mean?

1) Well, in the short run it probably means that French artillery and small arms are of a much higher quality and quantity than in OTL. Though not enough IMO to turn the tide of the Napoleonic Wars, it might change a few things.

Short-term I'd think it would have little effect on the NW, almost like rocket and jet technology with regard to Nazi Germany. In and of itself it provides a potential key advantage, but at the same time it's the implementation thereof that is the difficult factor. Perhaps by the end of the war is when we start seeing the effect?

Something like how in LTTW, Thande has the non-French start utilizing steam-powered weapons platforms after the French model?

2) The ability to easily produce rifled small arms and artillery creates a need to produce ammunition suitable for such guns. This necessity may just lead to the earlier introduction of a Minie Ball or rough equivalent earlier.

This suggests the advent of the Rifle sooner, but how much would it affect the rate of development from single shot to automatic firearms?

Following the Napoleonic Wars there is a mass arms race/machine race to get the arms industries of the major powers up to speed. This could very well kickstart the industrial revolution, and with the increased precision afforded by an NC lathe give it a bit more get up and go.

Naturally the technology couldn't remain entirely a French secret for long, so it must eventually move into other nations 'arsenals'. What might it mean for industrialists, when all they need is local labor to build a factory and provide resources, and a few skilled operators (instead of numerous less skilled) to produce significant quantities of an item?

It would perhaps have the most noticeable effect in the colonies? Why ship things all the way back to the home country when it's cheaper to run it through the process abroad?

Fast forward a couple MORE years and the punch cards of the industrial revolution catch the eye of a young Charles Babbage who begins working on his infamous Analytical Engine...

BOOM history's changed completely, you've got the Industrial Revolution running a couple decades ahead of schedule, mechanical computers in the 1830's/40's. Rifled weapons becoming widespread by the 1820's etc.

And if the Analytical Engine is effective, it then can be used to better refine the CNC parameters if not eventually control the machines themselves.

Everyone, me included went to artillery first because, well, we're that sort of people. But if I understand it correctly, it's actually not going to be much cheaper or faster to manufacture armaments for the first 10 years (the Napoleonic Wars), in part because the number of people trained to operate V-J lathes will be small (I'm thinking punch-card programming doesn't actually have a lot to do with machining as practiced in 1800, so it'll be a generation before there's a large number of personnel to do it).

Right, I agree and stated similarly to Shawn above.

The idea about greater demand speeding up the minie ball is interesting. What has happened is actually that a large bloc of skilled labor has suddenly been freed up instead; making rifle barrels (which, let's face it, is profitable but tedious work for skilled artisans, at least on the scale an army requires) can now be done with the casual attention of one guy instead of the constant attention of two (I figure one person can oversee many V-J lathes if they're operating the same program to produce the same product). All those machinists who AREN'T trained on V-J lathes can now go do something else (shipbuilding? The screw propeller idea has promise too. Cue the Sea Mammal of Infamy).

Freed up labor could be a source of discontent, or perhaps additional bodies for the army?

So I suspect we see the Napoleonics with only minor butterflies - but 1815 France now has closed the gap with Britain in industrialisation and may actually lap it. Things really explode, though, when we get punch card programmers who were never machinists first - and realize that the basic technique can be applied to a great many devices.

Combined with analytical machines you could have all those ballistic charts and manuals converted for much more accurate cannon fire.

Were that to happen, I'd find it terribly ironic that a man like Napoleon (who I am told was remarkably skilled at mental calculus) would push a technology that could make his skill obsolete.

 

[MacCaulay]

Sorry, MacCaulay: I think there's lots of interest, but yes, we're going to have to poke a while to see what to do with it (and as the originator of the idea you of course have first dibs).

Well, I will do my best. For all my posts, I'm willing to bet one in 40 is in the pre-1900.

...the number of people trained to operate V-J lathes will be small (I'm thinking punch-card programming doesn't actually have a lot to do with machining as practiced in 1800, so it'll be a generation before there's a large number of personnel to do it).

Well, a good basic way to explain it is to say that the folks who design the punch cards don't always have to be the folks who run the lathes. Think of it as "proto-software" and "hardware."

The mechanics of a lathe or milling machine, after all, will remain the same. Drills, mills, taps, etc., will still operate the same. But how they're told to do their work will change and that will require this new person who knows how to properly make punch cards. Proto-programmers if you will.

making rifle barrels (which, let's face it, is profitable but tedious work for skilled artisans, at least on the scale an army requires) can now be done with the casual attention of one guy instead of the constant attention of two (I figure one person can oversee many V-J lathes if they're operating the same program to produce the same product). All those machinists who AREN'T trained on V-J lathes can now go do something else

That's something else you touch on that is very interesting: not only can a machinist turn out more parts with greater accuracy, they really are concentrating on the maintenance of the dimensions (making sure the drills are true, the taps aren't wearing, etc.) as opposed to the actual movements.
You can train people to run machines easier now, and employ more folks to run more machines, which can themselves turn out more parts thanks to NC technology. It's almost like a self-feeding cycle that is only limited by your labour base and capital.

Things really explode, though, when we get punch card programmers who were never machinists first - and realize that the basic technique can be applied to a great many devices.

Exactly! Right on the money!

Do you personally know of any more? There must be a good number of French innovators that made some of the same things that Anglo-Americans were credited with but just didn't end up with the credit in the Anglosphere.

Naturally the technology couldn't remain entirely a French secret for long, so it must eventually move into other nations 'arsenals'. What might it mean for industrialists, when all they need is local labor to build a factory and provide resources, and a few skilled operators (instead of numerous less skilled) to produce significant quantities of an item?

You touch on a very important subject, especially in regards to one of the originators of this thread: Vaucanson. He is now credited with the invention of a slide-rest, which is a very important piece for manual (and early automatic) lathes.
But for many years he wasn't credited with it because an English gunsmith at the imperial artillery works by the name of Maudsley (the first name escapes me) popularized it's use in the Britain.

It would perhaps have the most noticeable effect in the colonies? Why ship things all the way back to the home country when it's cheaper to run it through the process abroad?

There's a real world allegory for what you're talking about. I've worked in two of them myself. They're called job shops. Basically, you've got two kind of machine shops: corporate shops, which are owned by larger companies such as John Deere, International Harvester, Lockheed, etc., and build parts for them. These are the "plants," as you see them in movies and on TV.

Then there's job shops, normally employing anywhere from five to twenty people (I work at the largest job shop John Deere uses which employs 80). They do work for multiple companies. They don't market parts themselves, but do work that other companies give to them. Their business is in marketing their machines and ability to do a wide variety of work.

Now let's suppose you're a company like John Deere, which makes tractors and ships them all over the world. It's economically unsound to always make the parts in Moline, Illinois or Des Moines, Iowa, at your main plants and then ship them all over the world. What you do, then, is market out contracts to smaller job shops and pay them to build you parts in...say...Arizona, or Florida, or even South Africa or Australia or England. Heck, I work at one in Iowa that does excess work and alot of aluminum, since the John Deere plant that we get work from doesn't do any work in aluminum.

So you've hit the nail right on the head: there's lots of room for the economies of other nations to take off early by exploiting this need in the market.

And if the Analytical Engine is effective, it then can be used to better refine the CNC parameters if not eventually control the machines themselves.

That's something I never thought of...I'm not super familiar with how that Analytical Engine worked, or what it was designed to do.

If I'm following you correctly: one uses the punch card system to enable a working Analytical Engine, then plugs that in to an NC machine as the "computer" brain.

Thus...we have a CNC machine. That's brilliant!

The only question is: can the Analytical Engine be programmed? By that I mean: can you change it externally, without messing with the cards? The big difference between an NC and a CNC machine is that with the CNC machine, you can use the computer to make movements to the tools, as opposed to manually adjusting them.

The computer allows so much more ability, it's amazing: it would even allow quality control to jump ahead by leaps and bounds.

 

[Azardin]

The mechanics of a lathe or milling machine, after all, will remain the same. Drills, mills, taps, etc., will still operate the same. But how they're told to do their work will change and that will require this new person who knows how to properly make punch cards. Proto-programmers if you will.

I wonder what the mathematical implications of a trade like this arising so early would be? Could it be that more emphasis on various elements of calculus that would have been developed later (circa 20th Century) would now have the proper impetus for arising in the early 19th?

You touch on a very important subject, especially in regards to one of the originators of this thread: Vaucanson. He is now credited with the invention of a slide-rest, which is a very important piece for manual (and early automatic) lathes.
But for many years he wasn't credited with it because an English gunsmith at the imperial artillery works by the name of Maudsley (the first name escapes me) popularized it's use in the Britain.

Exactly, there must be numerous persons throughout history that could be used in any AH endeavor, and especially in this one relative to the central technological WI and even some of the ancillary technologies.

There's a real world allegory for what you're talking about. I've worked in two of them myself. They're called job shops. Basically, you've got two kind of machine shops: corporate shops, which are owned by larger companies such as John Deere, International Harvester, Lockheed, etc., and build parts for them. These are the "plants," as you see them in movies and on TV.

Then there's job shops, normally employing anywhere from five to twenty people (I work at the largest job shop John Deere uses which employs 80). They do work for multiple companies. They don't market parts themselves, but do work that other companies give to them. Their business is in marketing their machines and ability to do a wide variety of work.

I see, I almost actually got a design job with a company like that, which made super finishing tools for the industries.

Now let's suppose you're a company like John Deere, which makes tractors and ships them all over the world. It's economically unsound to always make the parts in Moline, Illinois or Des Moines, Iowa, at your main plants and then ship them all over the world. What you do, then, is market out contracts to smaller job shops and pay them to build you parts in...say...Arizona, or Florida, or even South Africa or Australia or England. Heck, I work at one in Iowa that does excess work and alot of aluminum, since the John Deere plant that we get work from doesn't do any work in aluminum.

So you've hit the nail right on the head: there's lots of room for the economies of other nations to take off early by exploiting this need in the market.

A sort of Globalism, 150 years early? Considering that OTL Globalism is (as far as I am aware) a result of much of the early 20th Century (and all the progress and upheaval that entails) I wonder what character it would take on in the early 19th? Could there be some amalgamation of it with the 'White-Man's Burden', or completely new world-spanning ideologies?

That's something I never thought of...I'm not super familiar with how that Analytical Engine worked, or what it was designed to do.

Insofar as I'm aware, it is essentially a mechanical calculator. It could do certain mathematical operations based on how it was constructed, which was the limiting factor instead of its programming (or perhaps in this case, programming/construction are essentially one and the same)

If I'm following you correctly: one uses the punch card system to enable a working Analytical Engine, then plugs that in to an NC machine as the "computer" brain.

Thus...we have a CNC machine. That's brilliant!

Exactly that! You could have a series of NC machines with their punch-cards controlled (which card, when inserted) by the clanking gears of the AE.

The Engine itself could then also be controlled by NC cards of its own, so that it would be built with a set range of possible operations. Instead of building specific machines for specific operations, the generalized machine could control an entire factory floor's operation by itself.

You'd need humans, naturally, to maintain and oversee the operation. Also, you'd need a power source to keep everything running, but you could have a significantly automated factory this way.

The only question is: can the Analytical Engine be programmed? By that I mean: can you change it externally, without messing with the cards? The big difference between an NC and a CNC machine is that with the CNC machine, you can use the computer to make movements to the tools, as opposed to manually adjusting them.

The computer allows so much more ability, it's amazing: it would even allow quality control to jump ahead by leaps and bounds.

Like I said above, the programming seems to come from how it is constructed. But as with player pianos (constructed to be able to hit every single key), it stands to reason that individual possible operations can be controlled by a proper input.

Since it is a mechanical computer, I would not think that modifications would be simple. The punch-cards could be easily modified, but in order to change a gear within the machine you'd have to bring it offline, and dismantle it to first reach it, and then perform whatever operation you intend.

Were these things built...I'd hate to be the poor German factory worker (or any nationality, for that matter) that gets sent into the infernal depths of the factory's AE overseer to fix a broken sprocket... German complexity in engineering could gain all new meaning in a literary sense here.

 

[NothingNow]

You'd need humans, naturally, to maintain and oversee the operation. Also, you'd need a power source to keep everything running, but you could have a significantly automated factory this way.

Steam or Hydro-power would be good at first, and later on as things get more advanced an Electrical system, which would make things less complicated since the only mechanical parts you'd need would either be in the Computer or in the Working side of the machine. It could also make a machine Smaller and lighter, thus after awhile cheaper.

Since it is a mechanical computer, I would not think that modifications would be simple. The punch-cards could be easily modified, but in order to change a gear within the machine you'd have to bring it offline, and dismantle it to first reach it, and then perform whatever operation you intend.

Yeah It'd be extremely hard to change the Programing once it's built. You could build it to do one or Two closely Related jobs but that's it. So you could make an Analytical engine for a 3-axis milling machine, but it can't be the same design as one for a power Loom or something.

Were these things built...I'd hate to be the poor German factory worker (or any nationality, for that matter) that gets sent into the infernal depths of the factory's AE overseer to fix a broken sprocket... German complexity in engineering could gain all new meaning in a literary sense here.

Actually, anybody sent down there would have to be Skilled labor, simply because that damn Engine would be so ridiculously Complicated by it's very nature that sending someone down with out training is likely to do more harm than good.

 

[Azardin]

Steam or Hydro-power would be good at first, and later on as things get more advanced an Electrical system, which would make things less complicated since the only mechanical parts you'd need would either be in the Computer or in the Working side of the machine. It could also make a machine Smaller and lighter, thus after awhile cheaper.

Or even animal power connected to a drive train of some sort. Though I wouldn't think that electrical power would be something to truly envision here, as it seems to be getting ahead of the POD.

The other theories and technologies surrounding electricity seem to indicate that you wouldn't see much in the way of hybridization. Mechanical computers would give way (perhaps electromechanical, but I do not personally know of any examples) to electrical devices much like those that existed in the early 20th century. Here you might have the base for them to arise earlier in late 19th century, but to me it sounds oversimplified to speak of it in terms as 'later on as things get more advanced'.

Since we're talking about an alternate technological evolution, it'd be best if we spoke if it as often as possible in terms of the respective iterations (IMO, at least) so that the relationships between can be best analyzed and the effects best understood. (Again, IMO)

Yeah It'd be extremely hard to change the Programing once it's built. You could build it to do one or Two closely Related jobs but that's it. So you could make an Analytical engine for a 3-axis milling machine, but it can't be the same design as one for a power Loom or something.

Right, you'd have to essentially rebuild entire sections if not the whole damned thing.

Actually, anybody sent down there would have to be Skilled labor, simply because that damn Engine would be so ridiculously Complicated by it's very nature that sending someone down with out training is likely to do more harm than good.

Oh, I understood that. I was speaking in the sense of the ever present chance of some component snapping into the next position and crushing you (think of trying to work on a jammed lawn mower blade).

 

[MacCaulay]

A sort of Globalism, 150 years early? Considering that OTL Globalism is (as far as I am aware) a result of much of the early 20th Century (and all the progress and upheaval that entails) I wonder what character it would take on in the early 19th? Could there be some amalgamation of it with the 'White-Man's Burden', or completely new world-spanning ideologies?

My initial brainstorm would be that this idea is a perfect way to write a story that explains the effects of this technology on the world and the way it works: have a VOC supervisor in Batavia or an East India Company manager in Delhi opening up a machine shop.

Heck, someone could make up a company. That would show the effects of the technology on the rest of the world as well as give a logical reason to explain how it works.

Exactly that! You could have a series of NC machines with their punch-cards controlled (which card, when inserted) by the clanking gears of the AE.

Sounds like we're sticking a transmission between a lathe and the AE.

The Engine itself could then also be controlled by NC cards of its own, so that it would be built with a set range of possible operations. Instead of building specific machines for specific operations, the generalized machine could control an entire factory floor's operation by itself.

With job shops, it might be better to have regular tape-fed (the card-tapes) NC machines, as those would generally be more adaptable and cheaper.

Oddly enough, I've run a lathe that uses one computer for two different chucks (that's the "fingers" that grip the part).

Like I said above, the programming seems to come from how it is constructed. But as with player pianos (constructed to be able to hit every single key), it stands to reason that individual possible operations can be controlled by a proper input.

Since it is a mechanical computer, I would not think that modifications would be simple. The punch-cards could be easily modified, but in order to change a gear within the machine you'd have to bring it offline, and dismantle it to first reach it, and then perform whatever operation you intend.

Well, then what is it bringing to the game, then? The NCs are unable to make movements unless the tools are manually adjusted or the cards are replaced. What is the AE improving?



By the way, so everyone has a good idea of what this looks like, here's an NC lathe...

And here's an NC vertical...

The monitor on the side of the vertical isn't needed. That's something that translates the program on the tape and puts it up on the screen for the operator to read.

An example line of code would be: G57 X-0.040 F.004

G57 is the work offset, which tells the tool the starting position from which it will begin it's machining.

X-0.040 means that the tool will travel .040 thousandths (or forty thou in machinist speak) of an inch negative on the X axis.

F.004 denotes the "feed rate," or the speed at which the machine will push the tool into the part.

The monitor doesn't need to be there, but it is useful. When we talk about machines, these two are the most common and definitely the most useful: without the lathe and the Bridgeport (the design of vertical that the bottom machine is), no one would've been able to make any guns in WWI or II.

 

[DuQuense]

?I'm wondering how complicated making a set of Cards would be.?

If the Earl of Sherwood want a set of Sheets and Tablecloths with his family Crest Woven in, it is to expensive for a large Factory, but with this a Cottage or Plantation could do it.

As opposed to large-scale factories Whe get small Cottage Factories, dealing in One of a kind.

 

[Shawn Endresen]

In the early generations, an AE doesn't have much benefit being connected directly to the device (while we're still using punch cards. Once we move beyond punch cards to a more human interface, it becomes handy). But a punch card programmer needs an AE on his desk to perform his calculations much more quickly. A client comes in with an odd looking metal contraption and says "I need 500 of these by Teusday". Assuming it's a complicated device, production may be relatively fast and simple but the program could take forever to write if you're doing the first draft on pencil and paper. Rush jobs like that aren't so reasonable. But a punch card programmer with an AE to do a lot of his scutwork CAN write a new program that fast.

Niche market at first, but SOMEBODY must need strange new parts very quickly.

 

[Just Leo]

First of all, Mac, you don't say dicky things.

Secondly, how does one say .0016"? One point six thou, or sixteen ten thou?

Thirdly, there were two TV programs that made TV seem worthwhile. Both, strangely from the BBC. One was Jacob Bronowski's "The Ascent of Man". The other was James Burke's "Connections". They both featured the host describing something that happened from where it happened. Connections cleverly segued, and I paraphrase, somebody in ancient Babylon wondering what a fart was, several steps through the ages, and then BOOM the atomic bomb. But everything went through the steps. Siege cannons led to the development of mapping. Machining was derived from navigation. Jacquard was in there somewhere, but I forgot the connection. And standard firearms dimensions and interchangability of components was historically early in the van of the mass production phenomenon. But exactly which step or series of steps are we trying to time warp across?