Vanguards and cruiser tanks in Malaya and Singapore

Seems your intention is to create infantry gun which would be survivable in typical environment of Battle of Malay peninsula. For this purpose, field fortification around 2-pdr or even old 3-pdr gun will be more effective than SPG which would every day face the risk of mechanical breakdown, risk being lodged in mud, risk being hit by airstrike while on move, and on top having an armour semi-effective against rifle fire at most.

Without a prime mover, those guns are lost as soon as the crews hear they have been flanked
 

trurle

Banned
Without a prime mover, those guns are lost as soon as the crews hear they have been flanked
And SPGs can run away until they are out of fuel and destroyed by their own crews, as soon as the crews hear they have been flanked

Bad morale cancels any advantage in equipment. No need to state obvious.
the guns is over by the 4th Hill from the white building in the gully, the west side. It should still be there after your 45 minute flight
Or something like this:
- This is Chitose-3-23. We have a column of hostile vehicles below in square 26-32, moving to 27-31. Speed about 20.
- This is Nagaoka-1-1. Understood. Will arrive in strike range after 45 minutes. Please continue to track bandits.

I did mention hurricanes so air superiority will be a back and forth affair.
Doubtful. Hurricanes IOTL had a poor record against Ki-43 during battle of Singapore, even if you do not count the terrible losses on ground during bombing raids. Furthermore, Hurricanes would have difficulties intercepting even the Japanese legacy scout planes Ki-15 (480km/h), not saying about newest scouts Ki-46 (630 km/h). Actually, IOTL battle of Singapore had no record of Japanese scout plane losses at all.
 
- This is Chitose-3-23. We have a column of hostile vehicles below in square 26-32, moving to 27-31. Speed about 20.
- This is Nagaoka-1-1. Understood. Will arrive in strike range after 45 minutes. Please continue to track bandits.

From what I understand, IJAAS and IJA had no Forward Controller system. Local units would have to go up the chain of command to divisional, and they would communicate with the Sentai assigned to the area, and then they would go out and sortie.
Lack of Radios on the ground, and even in the air, did limit effectiveness.
 
Doubtful. Hurricanes IOTL had a poor record against Ki-43 during battle of Singapore, even if you do not count the terrible losses on ground during bombing raids. Furthermore, Hurricanes would have difficulties intercepting even the Japanese legacy scout planes Ki-15 (480km/h), not saying about newest scouts Ki-46 (630 km/h). Actually, IOTL battle of Singapore had no record of Japanese scout plane losses at all.

Actually it was the by the book commanders than the planes that was to blame. The flying tigers were able use their planes best strengths against the Japanese which was no slow speed turning instead high speed manoeuvres at high altitude not the RAF would knew about this anyway.

Brewster buffalo was useless from its entry into service and wild cats were much better.
 

trurle

Banned
From what I understand, IJAAS and IJA had no Forward Controller system. Local units would have to go up the chain of command to divisional, and they would communicate with the Sentai assigned to the area, and then they would go out and sortie.
Lack of Radios on the ground, and even in the air, did limit effectiveness.
You are missing the institution of "mixed sentai" which had much lower reaction time. These were IJA ad hoc formations modeled after IJN carrier wings, and they worked with very short loop times, with target direction decision need to pass through radio operator and sentai commander only.

Regarding shortage of radio, true. On the other hand, the shortage of radio did save the life of my great-grandfather. The radio on his back was deemed too valuable to send him to any dangerous skirmish.
 
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I think the problem we have here is understadning what this Vanguard is - for me it is more an early FV432 than a slightly larger Lloyd carrier - although that might not be what the OP had in mind

With regards to the SP Arty - it would have to be a chassis of at least 10 tons - if the Vanguard is not this size/heavy then its likely that a later Vickers 6 ton design (which was about 9 plus tons - See T26) would have to be the basis of such a design

Regarding shortage of radio, true. On the other hand, the shortage of radio did save the life of my great-grandfather. The radio on his back was deemed too valuable to send him to any dangerous skirmish.

Good for him :)
 
I think the problem we have here is understadning what this Vanguard is - for me it is more an early FV432 than a slightly larger Lloyd carrier - although that might not be what the OP had in mind

With regards to the SP Arty - it would have to be a chassis of at least 10 tons - if the Vanguard is not this size/heavy then its likely that a later Vickers 6 ton design (which was about 9 plus tons - See T26) would have to be the basis of such a design

Okay I based the vanguard off the previous picture by Lord wylcliff on the APC thread the vanguard is based on the Vickers MK VI tank.
 
So what is stopping every enterprising officer between London and Singapore stripping Malaya's defenses of any useful forces. As soon as they get competent someone is going to point to the low level of threat and shift forces elsewhere.
 

Driftless

Donor
Upgrading the defenses of Malaya and Singapore was in the works from the late '30's, largely based on the region-wide review by Gen Percival. His assessments were apparently pretty good and agreed to by London, but the Fall of France, Battle of Britain, and North Africa bumped Malaya off the priority list
 
So what is stopping every enterprising officer between London and Singapore stripping Malaya's defenses of any useful forces. As soon as they get competent someone is going to point to the low level of threat and shift forces elsewhere.

The only way I have ever managed to reconcile this is to have Japanese intentions - Say the occupation of FIC - viewed with greater suspicion by the Australian and New Zealand Governments (one of my PODs for this is the French resist the initial invasion and the bodys get stacked far far higher than OTL)

Before then there is no need for a large garrison for Malaya as there is no threat real or perceived beyond the 'what if'

So the Australian Government and possibly the New Zealand Government both demand the return of their troops and the bulk of the 2nd Australian Imperial Force is ultimately stood up in Malaya

This of course would have to go hand in hand with an improved situaton in North Africa, East Africa and the Med in general allowing the release of the troops to the East

This can come about from a combination of Pods - my usual go to is a combination of the below

Improved Operation MB8/Attack on Taranto (2 or 3 carriers involved in the actual attack - 50 - 70 Torpedo carrying planes instead of 11) sinks far more of the Italian fleet

A stronger Malta on the back of the above - so vastely improved interdiction of the supply route between Italy and Libya

No intervention in Greece - either some one sits on Winston and/or the Australian and New Zealand Governments / Army Leadership is more reluctant regarding their use in W Force.

Operation Sonnenblume fails or is not attempted due to worse logistics and a stronger Commonwealth precence in North Africa

Crete either does not happen or is a defeat for the Axis

Carl shared some information last year - to the effect that there were about 32 Divisions of various quality based in the UK in 1941 - including 6 Armoured Divisions at various stages of training

Have several of those transfer to the Middle east and replace the 'ANZAC' Divisions in time for them to transfer to the Far East

You See?

Simple
 
Yep seen it before :)

But that circles back to something I was too late to post earlier in the thread. If Percival has more more political backing (eg the Aussies) and so more toys to play with, does he suddenly become competent?
 
So what is stopping every enterprising officer between London and Singapore stripping Malaya's defenses of any useful forces. As soon as they get competent someone is going to point to the low level of threat and shift forces elsewhere.
Since its a defensive battle could you not engineer a situation that results in simply building stuff that cant (or are very hard to) be moved ie bunkers, mines?
..But that circles back to something I was too late to post earlier in the thread. If Percival has more more political backing (eg the Aussies) and so more toys to play with, does he suddenly become competent?
This hits the issue of what happened to him and did he simply collapse due to the pressure of OTL situation and if that would have happened in ITTL if he thought he might win or actually had solutions to work on?
 

SwampTiger

Banned

The shorter two-bogie, four-road-wheeled version
Type Tracked carrier
Place of origin France
Service history
Used by
France, Nazi Germany, Syria
Wars World War II
Production history
Designer
Lorraine
Designed 1936
Manufacturer Lorraine, Fouga
Produced January 1939 - November 1942
No. built ~480 by June 1940; ~630 in total
Specifications
Mass
6.05 metric tonnes loaded
Length 4.20 m (13 ft 9 in)
Width 1.57 m (5 ft 2 in)
Height 1.29 m (4 ft 3 in)
Crew two
Main
armament

none
Engine Delahaye type 135 6-cylinder inline
70 hp
Payload capacity 810 kg + 690 kg
Suspension leaf spring
Ground clearance 30 cm (12 in)
Fuel capacity 114 litres
Operational
range

137 km (85 mi)
Speed 35 km/h (22 mph)

German designations[edit]
  • Lorraine Schlepper (f) - The Lorraine tractor as captured.
  • Gefechtsfeld-Versorgungsfahrzeug Lorraine 37L (f) - Supply vehicle
  • Munitionstransportkraftwagen auf Lorraine Schlepper - Ammunition carrier
  • 7.5 cm PaK40/1 auf Geschützwagen Lorraine Schlepper (f) - 170 Marder I, a 7.5cm PaK40/1 equipped self-propelled anti-tank gun.
  • 15 cm sFH13/1 (Sf) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine Schlepper (f) - 94 self-propelled artillery vehicles, mounting 15cm sFH13/1 howitzers.
  • 10.5 cm leFH18 (Sf) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine Schlepper (f) - twelve self-propelled artillery vehicles, mounting 10.5cm leFH18/40 L/28 howitzers.
  • Beobachtungswagen auf Lorraine Schlepper (f) - An artillery observation vehicle, thirty of which were produced.
  • 12.2 cm Kanone (r) auf Geschützwagen Lorraine (f) - A single conversion mounting a Soviet 122 mm howitzer on the Lorraine chassis.
220px-Geschutzwagen_lorraine_150_mm_self-propelled_howitzer_2.JPG


Plus, the Russians did similar conversions of T-26.
The Schlepper 150 used a recoil blade in the rear.

Edit: Yes, copied from Wiki.
 

Driftless

Donor
Yep seen it before :)

But that circles back to something I was too late to post earlier in the thread. If Percival has more more political backing (eg the Aussies) and so more toys to play with, does he suddenly become competent?

Well, he probably doesn't look like a complete doofus, but everything I've read about the guy points to a grade-A level staff officer, but not someone to run a battle. I'd bet if you inserted any of the other options listed earlier AND each were given the same resources, you might have had a better outcome.
 

Glyndwr01

Banned
5ca8864eb9fa673c3d70b72526e17674.jpg

Make your anti tank capability mobile?
220px-Aust_3_inch_mortar_carrier%28AWM_134428%29.jpg

Make your mortar section mobile?
300

Bombard bunkers and road blocks?
th

Be a hot time tonight?
823068b8dd1f84d0aa83d1d682ff7dcb.jpg

More bang for your buck?
 
5ca8864eb9fa673c3d70b72526e17674.jpg

Make your anti tank capability mobile?
220px-Aust_3_inch_mortar_carrier%28AWM_134428%29.jpg

Make your mortar section mobile?
300

Bombard bunkers and road blocks?
th

Be a hot time tonight?
823068b8dd1f84d0aa83d1d682ff7dcb.jpg

More bang for your buck?

You know if someone or country created a modern day tracked universal carrier it would be a very useful vehicle today and it's very modular light tank, medical, infantry support

Am I wrong?
 
a modern day tracked universal carrier it would be a very useful vehicle today
Plenty of them available in different ages, sizes and shapes (well boxes and other boxes, need a roof for modern air-burst shells and NBC)
300px-Allied_Spirit_I_150126-A-LO967-001.jpg

M113
300px-GKN-Sankey_FV432_pic5.JPG

FV432
300px-RWS2017-37.jpg

MT-LB
300px-Type_63_APC_at_the_Beijing_Military_Museum_-_1.jpg

Type 63
300px-Pansarbandvagn_302_Revinge_2014-2.jpg

Pansarbandvagn 302 etc......

Add that size wise the carrier was designed for the standard available engines often a Ford V8 so now modern engines are much bigger so why not fit a full squad in?
 
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Yep seen it before :)

But that circles back to something I was too late to post earlier in the thread. If Percival has more more political backing (eg the Aussies) and so more toys to play with, does he suddenly become competent?

Percivals problem was that he understood what was required to resist a Japanese invasion - and totally understood that the forces he commanded were far below what was required (and of course the Japanese knew all of this because a German Raider captured a ship with a very detailed document detailing exactly how fucked the Malayan situation was)

I think this knowledge and the Knowledge that he was going to be the commander who lost a major colony broke his spirit.

As an officer he had always been very effective at every level of his career given a fairer crack at it I do not see why he would not be successful here!

As I suggested earlier having the Aussies form the principle core of Malayas defence (with 3 Inf Divisions and an Armoured Division) under command of the 'not dead ittl' General Sir Cyril Brudenell Bingham White, KCB, KCMG, KCVO, DSO who becomes the ground forces commander leaving Percival as theatre commander

Lastly - not all divisions are created equally

The forces he did have OTL were 3rd Tier. The 2 Indian Divisions (Between them comprising 3 'All Indian' Brigades and 2 Mixed Brigades and light on heavy weapons - AAA and arty - with only 2 Field regts - each with 24x25 pounders although they did have some 4.5 and 3.7" batteries between them rather than the 3 a first tier Division would expect to have ) had been little more than Militia not a year before or very recently formed units so were very green and had yet to complete their full training regime. The 8th AID had 'lost' a Brigade which was split up among the other locations such as Rabaul, Ambon, and Timor (and along with their Parent division would also be totally destroyed in the battles for those locations) and of the 4 Australian Infantry Divisions was the least experienced. The 3 Aussie Divisions (6th AID, 7th AID and 9th AID) on the other hand were Veteran units and arguably some of the best divisions in any army of the war. Indeed each of those 'Vet' Divisions probably has more Artillery than the entire 25th Army!

With those and actual tanks (as well as the Vanguard APCs) not only do I see a vast improvement but options like Operation Matador are very likely to be on the table.

Japan faced with the 2nd AIC is going to have to reinforce the 25th Army units attacking Malaya and these might come from China - possibly the Principle unit intending to attack Hong Kong (Particularly if the British Strip it of its defenders sending those and C-Force to Malaya instead) the 38th Division (leaving the B-Class 66th Infantry Regt to Mask HK) once the withdrawal of the HK |Garrison is realised

It might also rob the PH campaign - possibly reassigning the 16th or 48th First class Divisions leaving the 14th IJA Army with 1 Division and 1 or 2 Infantry Brigades

This of course compounds the already 'sketchy' logistics that the 25th Army managed to muddle through OTL!
 

trurle

Banned
Percivals problem was that he understood what was required to resist a Japanese invasion - and totally understood that the forces he commanded were far below what was required (and of course the Japanese knew all of this because a German Raider captured a ship with a very detailed document detailing exactly how fucked the Malayan situation was)

I think this knowledge and the Knowledge that he was going to be the commander who lost a major colony broke his spirit.

As an officer he had always been very effective at every level of his career given a fairer crack at it I do not see why he would not be successful here!

You are omitting the possible Japanese reactions. They relied heavily on local espionage (provided by locals who in majority were hostile to British cause) information, not only on documents captured from Andromedon vessel. Any buildup of British forces would be detected, taken into account and countered. Of course, Japanese did not have infinite resources, therefore some secondary operations, especially in DEI, would be delayed. But the Singapore and Malay peninsula with it, being the primary Japanese target, were pretty much destined to fail. Therefore, Percival`s defeatist stance was perfectly rational.

On his place (having all the knowledge of future), i would actually try to prepare a large-scale evacuation, may be to Java. Losses in men would be well over 50%, therefore even this move is morally questionable although makes some military sense.
 
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