Vanguards and cruiser tanks in Malaya and Singapore

NOTE: This an scenario is offshoot from my APC thread and thanks to@Derwit & @Cryhavoc101 who further expanded upon it.

The mid 1940 the British army trials a dozen vanguard troop carriers and bishop self propelled guns in Malay, Singapore and east Indies. The trials prove without a doubt that tanks can work in the jungle without hindrance, the British further enhance the defence of Malaya and Singapore by forming two oversized armored battalions using a mixture of A10 cruiser tanks half of which is the close support version and vickers MK VIB/C light tanks with vanguard troop carriers and a bishops.

The RAF is further enhanced with the use of re-engined hurricane MK I that supplement the Brewster buffalo.

How does the defence of Malaya and Singapore go now that British have armour?
Could the British prevent the fall of Malaya and Singapore or delay it?
Who would a better commander instead of Arthur Percival?
 
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Who would a better commander instead of Arthur Percival?
Marshall-Cornwall. OTL he was dismissed in 1944 for taking military exercises too far, so he wouldn't have soft-pedalled the defence preparations to placate local business interests like Perceval IMO; Hotblack, if he doesn't have an accident and get invalided out in 1940. Hitler thought he was the best general the British had got and, to do Adolf justice, up to around 1943 he wasn't the worst judge of a general. O'Connor, judging from his performance against the Italians. His early capture allows him to be significantly underrated.
 
Marshall-Cornwall. OTL he was dismissed in 1944 for taking military exercises too far, so he wouldn't have soft-pedalled the defence preparations to placate local business interests like Perceval IMO; Hotblack, if he doesn't have an accident and get invalided out in 1940. Hitler thought he was the best general the British had got and, to do Adolf justice, up to around 1943 he wasn't the worst judge of a general. O'Connor, judging from his performance against the Italians. His early capture allows him to be significantly underrated.

So he could have made a difference with the forces available? Brewster buffalo not withstanding.
 
So he could have made a difference with the forces available? Brewster buffalo not withstanding.
Perceval appears to have had a depressive/defeatist mindset and I suspect any half-competent general could, at worst, have made the Japanese pay a much higher price for taking Singapore than they did OTL. Plus someone more aggressive than Perceval would probably have pushed harder for more men and better equipment prior to the invasion. But OTL the Japanese were almost out of fuel and relatively low on munitions when they took Singapore. A determined, competently led counter-attack would have been very difficult for them to resist.
 
Perceval appears to have had a depressive/defeatist mindset and I suspect any half-competent general could, at worst, have made the Japanese pay a much higher price for taking Singapore than they did OTL. Plus someone more aggressive than Perceval would probably have pushed harder for more men and better equipment prior to the invasion. But OTL the Japanese were almost out of fuel and relatively low on munitions when they took Singapore. A determined, competently led counter-attack would have been very difficult for them to resist.

or turn Singapore into an asian Stalingrad at least.
 
And as well as the three I already mentioned, Lord Gort. He didn't cover himself in glory during the fall of France but he was tough and resolute as governor of Malta.
 
Elf Propelled gun?

;)

How about

Have the British build additional Valentines instead of the Covenanter and send those - its not like you need cruiser tanks in Malaya :)

Send 150 odd to form the 1st Australian Armoured Division as well as enough Vanguards to equip the 'Rifle' battalion attached

Also have the Aussies like the Canadians start building it at the New South Wales Railway company from Mid 41

I would not expect large numbers from the NSWRC before 42 but it does secure a longer term source of tanks built locally once Valentine and other tank production in the UK and Canada start heading to Russia.

And even if the Aussies are building 10s of tanks a month by Christmas 41 - thats better than none.

So with the withdrawl of the 2nd AIF (-6th Division sent to Australia) from North Africa between April and Sept 41 (following the failure of Rommels offensive and the Succesful defense of Crete (Wilson force is not sent to Greece due to resistance to the idea from the Australian and NZ governments) and this formation becoming the principle formation defending the Malay pennisular along with the III Indian Army Corps. 6th Division is returned to Australia but spent most of 42 being sent out as Brigade and some times Battalion sized 'fire brigades' and would not fight as a Division again until 44.

2nd Australian Imperial Force (Malaya - Nov 1941)

Corps Commanding officer - General Sir Cyril Brudenell Bingham White, KCB, KCMG, KCVO, DSO (he missed his plane and is still alive to command the Corps ITTL) - he effectively becomes the over all ground force commander under Percivil

7th Division
8th Division - minus 1 Brigade split among strategic locations in DEI - ie Ambon etc
9th Division
1st Armoured Division - minus its 2nd brigade retained as a training/reserve formation in Australia and composit units sent to strategic locations ie Ambon etc



1st Armoured Division (Note that if youa re hard of Commonwealth then Regiment = Battalion)
Divisional Headquarters
2/11 Armoured Car Regiment
2/3 Field Squadron, Royal Australian Engineers (RAE)
4 Field Squadron, RAE
2/1 Field Park Squadron, RAE


1st Armoured Brigade
2/5th Armoured Regiment - Valentine
2/6th Armoured Regiment - Valentine
2/7th Armoured Regiment - Valentine

1st Support Group from February 1942
17th Motor Regiment - Vanguards
108th Anti Tank Regiment, Royal Australian Artillery - 48 Towed 2 pounders (Universal carriers)
16th Field Regiment, Royal Australian Artillery - Bishop SPArt

1st Cavalry Brigade later renamed 3rd Rifle Brigade
4 Motor Regiment
26 Motor Regiment
101 Motor Regiment
Supported by the 25th Cavalry Regiment with Vanguards (initially only 25 but Australian and Commonwealth production increased this to 150 by April 42)

Divisional Administration Troops (Beyond scope)

The 2nd Armoured Brigade is retained in Australia as a training / replacement pool during much of 42 except for composit Squadrons from each Regiment that was deployed to Ambon and other strategic locations in the DEI in early 42. These used mainly Australian built Valentines with a 50/50 mix of 2 pounder to 95mm CS gun which proved very effective particulalrly at the battle of Ambon where they proved decisive. The Brigade and to that point its Regiments with the exception of the Composit units never deployed abroad during WW2.

2nd Armoured Brigade (Training unit)
2/8th Armoured Regiment (Ad Hoc)
2/9th Armoured Regiment (Ad Hoc)
2/10th Armoured Regiment (Ad Hoc)


Also as the Vanguard is a larger Carrier have the Aussies make it as well as they were building Universal Carriers during the war?
 
Elf Propelled gun?

;)

Okay proof that not all phones typing pad is equal which goes for the word suggestion/correction and fast typing.

But answer your question the A10 is this because it works

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_II

But the Valentine tank would work too though in small numbers.

Okay in the previous APC thread Australia did make vanguards too so yes their Malaya and Singapore in this scenario.

Crete successfully defended? Hmm
 
Who would a better commander instead of Arthur Percival?
Personal I would send Air Chief Marshal Hugh Caswall Tremenheere Dowding, 1st Baron Dowding, GCB, GCVO, CM.......

He is free and has won at least one defensive victory that makes him far more qualified than most British commanders in late 1940.... (he was fired from FC on 24 November 1940)

- Willing to stand up to WC & AM

- Technically competent in radar and organizing large prepared defences with effective communication etc...

- Outranks everybody in Malaya by a huge amount (Four-star) so combined commander (RAF/ARMY/RN/civilian) + Massive prestige of 'saving' GB in BoB....

Send him in say Jan 1941 to prepare Malaya and I think it probably holds (giving him more kit just makes it easier)?

(And yes I want to see what the AM reaction is once he wins come mid 42....)
 
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Driftless

Donor
Percival had identified most of the weak spots in the pre-war defensive scheme, but not enough was done to mitigate those gaps. Percival was an effective staff officer, but not good as the top guy, or as a battle leader. Also, too many green troops facing Japanese veterans, so I'd guess even with more armor, the battle still goes against the Commonwealth. However, additional effective armor should help blunt the Japanese attacks somewhat, in part by being better able to deal with Japanese flanking manuevers. That might give Commonwealth forces more time to regroup and form a more orderly defense.

You still need someone in command early on who kicks both Percival and the colonial leadership in the shorts to deal with setting up sturdy defensive works nearer to Singapore. O'Connor or Alexander would have been perfect.

If the conquest of Malaya and Singapore takes longer, does that also slow the fall of Burma? I'd guess that it would by both straining Japanese limited resources and by giving the Commonwealth forces more time to regroup.
 
Okay but the navy o (the British called the zero) and the lack of early warning is going to hurt hurricanes or no.

Plus their paratroop aircraft look like the Lockheed Hudson so there's that too.
 
Okay proof that not all phones typing pad is equal which goes for the word suggestion/correction and fast typing.

But answer your question the A10 is this because it works

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruiser_Mk_II

But the Valentine tank would work too though in small numbers.

Okay in the previous APC thread Australia did make vanguards too so yes their Malaya and Singapore in this scenario.

Crete successfully defended? Hmm

Have the Valentine Enter Production earlier - the Design can be traced back as far as Feb 1938! First orders were in April 39. Perhaps have an earlier decision to go the 32 Division strong Continental Army and therefore the need for more tanks is realised earlier and the Valentine enters production earlier etc etc and its testing shows its superiority to the other tanks then in production (it was faster than the Mk II A10 for example) and given the relative ease of construction by Railway and boiler company's have it built in larger numbers....earlier.

As for Crete a combination of Fresher forces (ie not evacuated from Greece as they are never sent and still retaining their full ToOE) and had there been a tank Squadron of Valentines and Vanguards with the Kiwis at Maleme - then its likely that they would have overrun the lightly equipped Fallshirmjeagers on the morning of the 2nd day. OTL an NZ infantry attack was due to go in but the covering Battalion had withdrawn over night and the Local Brigade commander bottled it. With tanks and Vanguards in support - this is less likely to happen and with the FJ Brigade and airhead at Maleme destroyed its far more likely that the camapign ends in a defeat for the Germans and Italians. Its also possible that the Axis commanders look at Aerial photos showing numbers of AFVs and go ahhhhhh nope nope nope nope.
 

Okay combine my universal tank class thread with the APC thread, this and your post you have one heck of timeline.

Though it would be funnier if the British hid the tanks if only to see German bridge too far or is it an island to far?


Fallshirmjeager:I hate this job! Damn that raving fools in Berlin they can go stick their heads in an oven!!
 
Valentine’s should be good, smallish, lightish and armed with the 3” howitzer for fire support.
However, cant help thinking of the ‘last of the Mohicans’ and the Huron’s charging out of the Forrest - Reading Japanese with satchels full of explosives.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I had considered an Aussie Valentine replacing the Sentinel development. It could start at the same time as Canadian production. The 6 pdr design was complete, but stalled summer of 1940. Send drawings to Australia. Use the Cadillacs from the Sentinel in a twinned setup ala' the M5 Stuart. Now you have a 220 hp, 6 pdr and 3" howitzer Valentine in production by mid 1941.
 
Managing to avoid the Canberra air disaster would have had wider implications for Australian politics as well as the war in the Far East. Gullett, Street and Fairbairn were pretty major figures as well as White
 
I had considered an Aussie Valentine replacing the Sentinel development. It could start at the same time as Canadian production. The 6 pdr design was complete, but stalled summer of 1940. Send drawings to Australia. Use the Cadillacs from the Sentinel in a twinned setup ala' the M5 Stuart. Now you have a 220 hp, 6 pdr and 3" howitzer Valentine in production by mid 1941.
Yes its great but they would be used in Med or shipped to Soviets.....

I think you need to come up with stuff that was not needed for the war in Europe/Africa, that and simply more energy to test stuff and use what they have but I will admit that's more political involving fighting both London and local civilian leadership and treasury.
 
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