Vandal Corsica and Sardinia
- Thread starter Berus
- Start date
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
It's possible but I doubt it that the Vandals would be the ones assimilating here.
This requires the Vandals being left alone, and given they weren't exactly popular with either the Romans or the Ostrogoths, I can't see that happening. Really, I think the surprising thing is that the Vandal kingdom was able to last as long as it did in the face of outright hostility from Constantinople for the majority of its existence.
Why assimilate?
The Vandals might annihilate the native population of Corsica and Sardinia.
But when the Vandals were powerful they were looking for the rich lands and numerous local populations to rule, to extract revenue and to live at their expense.
They were not looking for the place just to live and to survive.
So we have to imagine the situation when the Vandals suffered a disastrous defeat but kept enough force to retreat to these islands. They massacred the majority of male population, enslaved and assimilated the male survivors and the local women. (Quite an ordinary thing by the way.)
Since then Corsica and Sardinia might be 'truly' Vandal islands with Vandal local population speaking Vandal language and keeping Vandal customs.
The Vandals might annihilate the native population of Corsica and Sardinia.
But when the Vandals were powerful they were looking for the rich lands and numerous local populations to rule, to extract revenue and to live at their expense.
They were not looking for the place just to live and to survive.
So we have to imagine the situation when the Vandals suffered a disastrous defeat but kept enough force to retreat to these islands. They massacred the majority of male population, enslaved and assimilated the male survivors and the local women. (Quite an ordinary thing by the way.)
Since then Corsica and Sardinia might be 'truly' Vandal islands with Vandal local population speaking Vandal language and keeping Vandal customs.
I can't think of any other Late Antique examples of this ever happening.
Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded and settled Britain. And assimilated the local population.
Does this example qualify?
Of course it was not that dramatical and tragic as I so vividly painted for Corsica and Sardinia.
But there was a massacre in Britain, and some! I assure you.
Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded and settled Britain. And assimilated the local population.
Does this example qualify?
Of course it was not that dramatical and tragic as I so vividly painted for Corsica and Sardinia.
But there was a massacre in Britain, and some! I assure you.
A "situation when the Vandals suffered a disastrous defeat but kept enough force to retreat to these islands" kind of situation, though?
Delvestius
Banned
It's not like they were trying to assault Minas Tirith or anything... It really wouldn't take much. I'm more concerned about how they'd fair on the defensive, but seeing as they're islands it might work out.
Oh, THAT kind of situation?
Let me see...
The Goths suffered a number of quite disastrous defeats from the Huns since 370-s.
But they kept enough force to retreat into the Eastern Roman Empire.
The Gothic War of 376–82 ensued. The Roman Emperor Valens was killed at the Battle of Adrianople in 378.
Does this example qualify?
Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded and settled Britain. And assimilated the local population.
Does this example qualify?
Of course it was not that dramatical and tragic as I so vividly painted for Corsica and Sardinia.
But there was a massacre in Britain, and some! I assure you.
There's actually very little evidence whatsoever for massacre. Assimilation, sure, but the native British population may have been somewhat less Romanised to begin with, and furthermore the English (to use a convenient misnomer) only arrived slowly, conquering as they went, rather than arriving and placing themselves atop a functioning Roman administrative structure. The situation in Britain is very different from pretty much everywhere else in the post-Roman West, only a few parts of northern Gaul are remotely comparable.
Anyway, genocide didn't happen, and it happening on Corsica and Sardinia is very unlikely.
No, but for them to be disastrously defeated means that their leadership and best warriors are dead or captured. This is more likely to break them up than see a consolidated "Vandal" anything.
Delvestius
Banned
I mean, you could make a threatened Vandal nobility from Atlas panic and flee with as much as their mustered fleet could carry and transfer to Sardinia before they get into too much of a mess and then ferry as much as they can before it gets dangerous. You'd have a pretty strong force that could perhaps challenge the Ostrogoths for dominance of Langobardia Major.
After a disastrous defeat?
Aren't those who inflicted that on them going to do something about that?
But they retreated from continental territory to more continental territory. This is like if the Roman Republic during the punic wars when Hannibal was marching on Italy and had previously defeated most defensive forces decided to pack up and move to Sicily, it just doesn't make that much sense. What the Goths did was move across a continent rather than pack up and hole up in an isolated area which probably couldn't support the population that would be retreating to it.Oh, THAT kind of situation?
Let me see...
The Goths suffered a number of quite disastrous defeats from the Huns since 370-s.
But they kept enough force to retreat into the Eastern Roman Empire.
The Gothic War of 376–82 ensued. The Roman Emperor Valens was killed at the Battle of Adrianople in 378.
Does this example qualify?
Delvestius
Banned
I mean, you could make a threatened Vandal nobility from Atlas panic and flee with as much as their mustered fleet could carry and transfer to Sardinia before they get into too much of a mess and then ferry as much as they can before it gets dangerous. You'd have a pretty strong force that could perhaps challenge the Ostrogoths for dominance of Langobardia Major.
Besides which, defeats don't always have to be disastrous, for a good number of reasons...
Oh aye. But if it is something disastrous, they might not have the opportunity.
Can't see why they'd head to Sardinia of all places, though.
Titus_Pullo
Banned
Angles, Saxons and Jutes invaded and settled Britain. And assimilated the local population.
Does this example qualify?
Of course it was not that dramatical and tragic as I so vividly painted for Corsica and Sardinia.
But there was a massacre in Britain, and some! I assure you.
I once heard a theory that the Germanic invaders anihilated the native Britons, and drove the rest into the highlands. e.g ethnic cleansing and if you prefer the term genocide. But modern genetic testing doesn't support the genocide theory given that the English have a simillar DNA results to the Welsh. And that pretty much everywhere the Germans settled, they were outnumbered.
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Well, on the other hand there's very little evidence that it was a peaceful migration of good old merry 'Anglo-Saxons' who were cheerfully hailed by the joyful crowds of the local 'British' population.
I never said anything about genocide in Britain.
But I am pretty sure that mass murders and killings took place. After all there were a lot of pirates and raiders among Angles and Saxons.
You see I am speaking about some desperate situation when the remnants of the Vandals fled to these islands.
It is 'us or them' kind of situation. When there's little land to feed the locals and invaders.
And when there'a a fear that the locals might stub in the back of the weakened Vandals.
Oh, you got the point!
If the Goths were forced to retreat and hole up in some poor island which couldn't support a lot of population - then they probably would be forced to kill a lot of male locals.