Valkyrie successful: a different Cold War

General Zod

Banned
This all sounds very solid to me. But I'd rather compare West Poland with Taiwan IOTL, given the relative size. We could see them, with western help, become a european version of the Asian tigers.

Good point. The Taiwan comparsion had escaped me but it works even better. Yes, the comparison with the Asian tigers is fine, not just for West Poland, but for all the Eastern European countries in the Western camp (Slovenia, West Romania, Croatia, Hungary), especially since they get admitted to the EU and can get the benefits of free trade, common currency, and economic integration with the German, Italian, and Swedish economic powerhouses. Hungary is the forerunner since they are an EU founding member in the mid-late 50s, the others get to join in the 60s.

TTL's economic landscape is seriously different since you get all German-speaking lands united in an economic powerhouse, the EU starts earlier and with more extensive supranational integration (economic, political and military; ITTL the Euro federalists largely get their dream fulfilled, albeit without Western Europe till rather later ITL), including united Germany, a somewhat larger Italy and Hungary and all of Scandinavia (albeit poor Finns groan under Soviet boot) but not France, Benelux, and Czechoslovakia (who go to build their own bloc with Iberian countries and later South Africa and Rhodesia), and later gets a good chunk of Eastern Europe as well. And southern-central China is capitalist from the start.
 
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Terlot

Banned
Your statement indicates a POD earlier then July 20th Plot:

Also by late 1944 Upper Silesia is largely devoid of Poles,
Why ? Germans didn't expell there a large number of people-circa 80,000 IIRC.
I think you are confusing this with Wielkopolska were 600,000 Poles were expelled.
So either the POD is earlier then the July 20th or after the events the German nationalists from the plotters begun large scale expulsions.


As it concerns Upper Silesia, there had been one referendum already, in 1921, it went in favor of Germany, but Poles cheated and gained the land by force after the returns.
There was a referendum by local districtis if they want to belong Poladn or Germany. Poles opposed violation of that votes by Allied Commission which wanted to limit area given to Poland.


At that point, whatever demands the Polish London government might make on Silesia are simply overruled.
By 20th July Churchill, Stalin and all others already agreed for Poland to gain more of Upper Silesia.
What you are suggesting goes further then that: that Great Britain violates its treaty with Poland and allows its western border to be changes(Britain never guarenteed eastern border). This would mean complete discreditation of international committments and treaties signed by Great Britain as well as them going against the very reason they entered the war.

and they are basically told "you already got Prussia, shut up''
And they tell "Good, our forces now join Red Army and Stalin, bye". Besides Prussia is not of the same value as Silesia in terms of industry and it was demanded by Stalin to have a warm-water port.



At this point, Churchill and the new American leadership, not to mention the majority of the British and American people, have come to the conclusion that they value the benefits (both in terms of ending the war in Europe much earlier, and in terms of containing Soviet expansion) of an early separate peace with Valkyrie Germany much more than carrying the war to the bitter end for the sake of appeasing Czech and Polish territorial claims.
Churchill is in different situation then USA-Great Britain has signed a treaty where it guarentees Polish western border of 1939. By scrapping that he would create a diplomatic disaster-so easy to exploit by Stalin and Soviets.

Those countries' independence is being restored, and that suffices.
The treaties spoke of borders not only about the form of government or elections.
to aggrandize Stalin and a few greedy Czechs and Poles.
Czechs and Poles are "greedy" because they want their land Nazis stole back ? You have strange beliefs...

A united Curzon Line Poland with Posen and Prussia would have been quite self-sustaining.
Self-sustaining ? What do you mean by that statement and what is the base of such claim ? Those areas have neither the industry, population or reasources to be independent.

If this gets West Poles to feel like puppets somewhat, they feel like American puppets first and foremost, since essentially the USA and later NATO are calling the shots in West Eastern Europe.
And what stops a party in Poland going to elections with slogan "Bring Silesia back" and calls to unite Poland ? Really, you would need an occupation and total dictatorship to not have this party win.
And the vast majority of West Poles are massively grateful for being this side of the Iron Curtain.
And German occupation of Poles in Silesia ? Seems unlikely, more likely:they are angry as hell.


ITTL Stalin does not seriously bother to push the creation of a united neutral Poland since he already controls the vast majority of Poland. Sovietizing it gives him bigger economic, strategic, and political advantages than the alternative.
And in TTL 1945 there is massive Soviet repression of anti-communist Polish activists and partisans
You forget that by 1947 there was a government of unity with socialists and PSL which was supported by many in Poland.
. Combine this with memories of Soviet repression during the 1939-41 occupation of eastern Poland (Katyn, anyone ?
You forget that while there was Katyn, it was one massacre compared to dozens made by Germany which dwarfed it. Neither did Soviets treat Poles as untermenchen. In 1945 people are going to remember this and will prefer Soviet rule, as they did in OTL when it replaced German one and Red Army was welcomed in many cities with greetings and flowers as long as it didn't engage in pillaging.


and you know why the vast majority of West Poles are no friends of the Soviets
They will be. Soviets will simply promise Finland Poland and restoring Silesia from German occupation. They loosen the control of Poland like they did in 1945-1947 in OTL.

"Unity" government ITTL does not happen, since there is not a Soviet occupation throughout Poland to enforce it.
Poland wasn't completely occupied by Soviets when Unity government was created in OTL...


Sovietizing it gives him bigger economic, strategic, and political advantages than the alternativ
The alternative is gaining 150 kilometer range to Berlin from Polish border I believe.

occupy the country and implement denazification and democratization pretty much like IOTL.
Oh dear-like in OTL ? You know that this means non-ending feud with West Poland as in OTL most Nazis were never sentenced and had high political positions in German society, government and institutions ?
 

General Zod

Banned
Your statement indicates a POD earlier then July 20th Plot:

Why ? Germans didn't expell there a large number of people-circa 80,000 IIRC.
I think you are confusing this with Wielkopolska were 600,000 Poles were expelled.
So either the POD is earlier then the July 20th or after the events the German nationalists from the plotters begun large scale expulsions.

By whatever means, at the time the London Peace accords are finalized, East and West Prussia are largely devoid of Germans, and Upper Silesia is largely devoid of Poles.

By 20th July Churchill, Stalin and all others already agreed for Poland to gain more of Upper Silesia.

For that matter, they had also agreed to restore a separate Austrian state. But as a result of the huge change created by the fall of the Nazi regime, all such agreements are scrapped.

What you are suggesting goes further then that: that Great Britain violates its treaty with Poland and allows its western border to be changes (Britain never guarenteed eastern border).

Sorry, wrong, back in 1939 they had guaranteed Poland's independence, not territorial integrity (which in London's eyes in 1919-1939, had always been of very dubious value). Anyway, in the monumental shift of international relations that conditional separate surrender of post-Nazi Germany creates, lack of concern for Polish territorial claims is a trivial background noise. It's simply not important to the vast majority of world public opinion, in comparison.

This would mean complete discreditation of international committments and treaties signed by Great Britain as well as them going against the very reason they entered the war.

ROTFL. Here UK and USA are implementing one of the greatest alliance reversals of all time, and do you think the issue is going to be significantly affected one bit by lack of concern for the claims of Polish nationalists ? Ridiculous. Anyway, the Western Allies' war aim, as far as Poland was concerned, was to restore Polish independence against Hitler, not enforce dubious Polish territorial claims. The surrender of Germany ensures the war aim is fulfilled. And the Western Allies are giving Prussia to Poland as an hefty compensation for all WWII losses. It is tragically true that in fact, this is not actually realized, since most of Poland becomes Stalin's slave, but sadly, this could not be avoided, owning to the military realities on the ground, short of immediately starting WWIII, which the Western Allies were utterly unwilling to do, on their own initiative. OTOH, this happened IOTL, too. At least, ITTL, thanks to the PoD, a significant slice of Poland is able to enjoy freedom and prosperity in the NATO/EU camp, throughout the Cold War.

And they tell "Good, our forces now join Red Army and Stalin, bye".

Who are presently busy slaughtering anti-Communist partisans? Suuurrreee. :rolleyes:

Besides, which "our forces" ? The London government and the Polish units integrated in the Anglo-American forces, whose very existence is dependent on the Western Allies' goodwill ? Do you think they would dare stage a mutiny if Churchill and the new US Administration do not fulfill Polish claims ? And how is this going not to end in a bloody mess, and make the Anglo-Americans even more hostile to Polish claims ? Apparently the London government had more common sense than this. They take the Prussian pie they are offered, and make themselves content.

and it was demanded by Stalin to have a warm-water port.

Butterflied ITTL.

Churchill is in different situation then USA-Great Britain has signed a treaty where it guarentees Polish western border of 1939. By scrapping that he would create a diplomatic disaster-so easy to exploit by Stalin and Soviets.

A. No, it guaranteed Polish independence, not territorial integrity.
B. Despite what Polish nationalists may think, they are not the center of the world and their dubious territorial claims are quite irrelevant for the rest of the world when world-changing events as the ones of 1944-45 ITTL are occurring and the Cold War is being birthed.

Czechs and Poles are "greedy" because they want their land Nazis stole back ? You have strange beliefs...

The Sudetenland was overwhelmingly German and it was ceded to Germany by a international treaty that all Western Powers subscribed. If anything, Czechs stole a land in 1919 they had no valid national self-determination claim about.

As it concerns Upper Silesia, it was given to Poland in 1921 under dubious circumstances, ITTL in 1944 it is largely devoid of Poles and Poland is getting all of Prussia as compensation.

Self-sustaining ? What do you mean by that statement and what is the base of such claim ? Those areas have neither the industry, population or reasources to be independent.

What ? Have the Polish population, industry, and resources in Posen, Lublin, Lodz, Masovia, suddenly vanished in the air ? Poland has survived fine for centuries without Silesia. This is getting beyond ridiculous.

And what stops a party in Poland going to elections with slogan "Bring Silesia back" and calls to unite Poland ?

Hmm, the fact that the only way to enforce revanchist claims on Allied-occupied Germany would be to start a war against the UK and the USA, which even Stalin is not mad enough to want, since it would end up in nuclear holocaust of the aggressor ? How many votes is your wild-eyed Pro-Soviet extreme nationalist party going to reap, with a "Let's get Posen nuked" party slogan ? Not to mention the fact that this would require putting West Poland under Stalinist yoke, the very moment when the country is rife with stories of Soviet terror from refugees from the Eastern section. Not a successful electoral platform, either. They shall be yet another fringe party of pro-Commie useful idiots, if and until they don't get banned like the Communists themselves.

Really, you would need an occupation and total dictatorship to not have this party win.

Hhm, sure, and Taiwan is going to choose union with the PRC under Mao, too. In these philo-Commie rabid-nationalist pipedreams, maybe. Not in my TL.

This party line may (and indeed is going to) work in Czechoslovakia. Not in West Poland, where the other half of the country can taste the harshness of Stalinist rule firsthand.

And German occupation of Poles in Silesia ?

There aren't many left, just as there aren't many Germans left in Prussia.

You forget that by 1947 there was a government of unity with socialists and PSL which was supported by many in Poland.

You mean, propped up by Soviet bayonets.

You forget that while there was Katyn, it was one massacre compared to dozens made by Germany which dwarfed it. Neither did Soviets treat Poles as untermenchen. In 1945 people are going to remember this and will prefer Soviet rule, as they did in OTL when it replaced German one and Red Army was welcomed in many cities with greetings and flowers as long as it didn't engage in pillaging.

Oh, sure, they shall so much prefer Red Army pillagers and Stalinist tyranny to candy-throwing GIs, and an America showering them with subsidies.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

They will be. Soviets will simply promise Finland Poland and restoring Silesia from German occupation.

But Stalin has no interest in truly-neutral united Poland, when he already fully controls most of Poland. His war booty was smaller ITTL, so he is even more interested in total control of what he grasped, same reason he occupied and Sovieticized Finland, and East Poland is a large part of his booty. He's not going to give that up for getting the Anglo-Americans out of Posen. Oh, he may make some promises about that, but they shall be and look so insincere and half-heatrted, that only a very few West Poles shall buy them. The AMericans are no idiots, the monly way tehy would allow Polish reunification to occur is if it becomes a true neutral (and most likely to end up in theri economic sphere anyway) like OTL Austria, not a non-Communist Soviet satellite like OTL Finland. So big net loss for Stalin.

As for "restoring" Silesia from Anglo-American-occupied Germany, Stalin shall NEVER make any public promises about that. That would be tantamount to admitting that the USSR plans to attack Germany and start WWIII any time soon. In other words, "Hey Dewey, I got a really strong urge to renovate old ugly Soviet cities, and that Hitler chap did not make enough of a good demolition work. Could you please land some hundred nukes on the USSR when I go kamikaze and invade Western Europe ?". The closest you are going to see things come to WWIII is in all likelihood when Mao forces a reluctant Stalin in the Far East War, and Mao shall pay a very high price for that folly.

They loosen the control of Poland like they did in 1945-1947 in OTL.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

ROTFL

Please cut the Communist propaganda.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

The alternative is gaining 150 kilometer range to Berlin from Polish border I believe.

No, the alternative is losing all access to Polish economic resources when links between neutral Poland and the EU shall intensify in the 50s-60s as war memories fade away, not to mention having to withdraw all Soviet forces from neutral united Poland, and place them on the Soviet-Polish border on the Curzon line, since the Americans shall never allow united Poland to become a Soviet satellite. It would be a serious net loss to the Soviet bloc, which fully controls most of Poland, only for the trivial gain of removing American troops from the Warta, which is why Stalin is not doing it.

Oh dear-like in OTL ? You know that this means non-ending feud with West Poland as in OTL most Nazis were never sentenced and had high political positions in German society, government and institutions ?

You are going to kill me with excessive laughing.

Which non-ending feud ? Last time I checked, Germany and Poland were good NATO and EU partners, Germany had sponsored admission of Poland in both organizations, economic and political links between the two nations were flourishing. ITTL West Poland shall not harbor an overwhelming grudge about Silesia just like West Germany did not IOTL. Cold War issues were, and shall be, paramount.

ITTL the Allied occupation powers and democratic German authorites are going to enforce a denazification policy that on the average is going to be slightly more stringent than IOTL (thanks to the mutual policy choice to cast all blame for Hitler's misdeeds on the Nazi and not the German people at large), please check the relevant TL entry. However it is not going to be any more radically extensive than IOTL. In other words, you may see some more Nazi war criminals sentenced (I have tried to tinker with TTL's numbers of Nazi war criminals sentenced and up them somewhat in comparison to OTL, both to account for the fact that Anglo-Americans control all of Germany, but also to indicate this), but there are not going to be any mass punishments for low-key cooperation with the Nazi regime. The latter would not just be contrary to the peace accords, but actually unfeasibile without wrecking society.

This is really unavoidable, and not caused by any malice from Germans or Anglo-Americans, since there is a point, when a society recovers to democracy and rule of law from a dictatorial human-rights-abusive regime, up to where you can pursue punishment and marginalization of people compromised with the old regime, and no further. Past that, you have to pursue reconciliation. The alternative is to unleash economic and social chaos, or enforce radical revolution and total substitution of ruling elites, which typically causes suffering and abuses as bad or worse than the ones of the past regime, and requires/creates a political regime just as tyrannical. Cfr. Mao, Lenin, Robespierre, Pol Pot. As opposed to: Mandela, Gorbachev, Juan Carlos of Spain, democratic Chile and Argentina.

Anyway, this is how things are going to work as it concerns West Poland ITTL:

Out of concerns for brutal Sovietization of East Poland, West Poles eagerly choose to belong in the Western camp, despite concerns about the economic viability of the little country, with most of the economic and population centers occupied by the Soviets. Radical nationalist claims over Silesia are only heeded by a lunatic fringe, since it is obvious that the Americans regard the border established by the London Accords as final, and only a madman would dare challenge them, with the Soviet threat looming.

Since West Poland is precious to the Western camp both as a military buffer and for propaganda purposes (pretty much for the same reason as West Berlin and Taiwan IOTL), the Americans reward this choice with massive economic, military, and political aid, starting with the Dulles Plan, which subsidize West Polish economy and cement its pro-Western loyalty. West Poland joins NATO and budding European cooperation.

When German-led EU forms in the early-mid 50s, its economy soars thanks to the economic boom in countries like Germany, Italy, Hungary, and Sweden and their union into a common economic-political-security space, and West Poland follows its NATO links to become a junior associated partner (and eventually a full member in the 60s) of the EU. Massive EU subsidies and military protection by the pan-european army go to augment American ones, and this aid pretty much buries old WWII resentments. West Poland becomes an European economic tiger, and prepares for the inevitable collapse of the Communist bloc and reunification with its Eastern downtrodden kindred.

Besides, they also have a sorry example in Czechoslovakia of where indulging in old WWII nationalist resentments leads: they become satellites to a quasi-fascist, ultranationalist great power in league with Iberian fascists and Southern African racists and have its money and soldiers shunted off to fight a lot of endless brutal colonial wars throughout Africa and Asia to support their waning imperialist glory. All the while, the EU soars in peace and prosperity. Not a very appealing example.
 
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General Zod

Banned
Don't you mean "Iberian"?

When you posted "Hiberian," I was wondering if you meant Irish fascists.

One more example of my horrid typing mistakes. Yep, I meant "Iberian". I have foreseen hyper-Gaullist France raising up a huge separatist mess in a Commonwealth country, and causing the downfall of a NATO country, but it is not Ireland. However, on second thoughts, do you think that nasty France would support Northern Ireland separatism ? This is a butterfly that I had not thought of. But it may be worth exploring. An IRA with great power support might get very nasty. Ireland in the nationalist French bloc ? Oh, with the mess on the other side of the pond, this would make the UK very angry at Paris. I wonder where else Paris could raise a mess for the NATO, if it starts supporting nationalist groups.
 

JJohnson

Banned
The Taft-Hartley Act prohibited jurisdictional strikes, wildcat strikes, solidarity or political strikes, secondary boycotts, "common situs" picketing, closed shops, and monetary donations by unions to federal political campaigns. It also required union officers to sign non-communist affidavits with the government. Union shops were heavily restricted, and states were allowed to pass "right-to-work laws" that outlawed union shops. Furthermore, the executive branch of the Federal government could obtain legal strikebreaking injunctions if an impending or current strike "imperiled the national health or safety".

With this, I think you've just about destroyed the modern Democrat party. Unions are a major source of their modern power/money base. What about Card Check, where unions can go into non-union businesses and force a vote on unionization?

Very interesting timeline, GZ.

James
 
With this, I think you've just about destroyed the modern Democrat party. Unions are a major source of their modern power/money base. What about Card Check, where unions can go into non-union businesses and force a vote on unionization?

Very interesting timeline, GZ.

James

Taft-Hartley passed in OTL and unions were still pretty powerful though.
 

General Zod

Banned
Taft-Hartley passed in OTL and unions were still pretty powerful though.

My same opnion here. ITTL Taft-Hartley is not any significantly harsher than IOTL, and the OTL American unions stayed pretty powerful and influential up to the 1980s (just like Hollywood studios, the vast majority of the unions were quick to close ranks and purge both the real Communist sympathizer felons and not a few innocent naive or defiant liberal/progressist/leftist scapegoats in ther midst, and thus greately lessened the Red Scare backlash against the whole community, both ITTL and IOTL).
 
In this scenario both german fronts fall apart; soviet troops rushes to the west and meets Anglo-Americans somewhere in the centre of german
 
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reply page one

How in the world did I miss this one:eek:
I really like this, but I have a question: how does this effect the Japanese front, if at all?
Stalin is besides himself with rage at being largely shut out of Central Europe and Soviet propaganda denounces the Western “betrayal” but eventually dares not to open another war with the Anglo-Americans. Difficult negotiations between the Western Allies and the Soviets at Yalta produce the following agreement: the Western Allies recognize the 1941 borders of the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union recognizes the border of Germany as defined in the Stockholm Accords, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Finland are acknowledged in the Soviet sphere of influence, Western Europe, Greece, Germany, Italy, Hungary, and Czechoslovakia are acknowledged in the Anglo-American sphere of influence. Poland and Yugoslavia shall be provisionally divided into Western and Soviet occupation zones until a unitary government can be elected, subsequently to become neutral states.

Stalin reluctantly accepts the Yalta accords as a recognition of the military situation on the ground, but denounces the armistice with Finland, quoting specious violations of the ceasefire, and orders the occupation of the country: after an heroic resistance, the Finnish army is overwhelmed and Finland is occupied by the Soviets.

War in Europe officially comes to an end on January 10, 1945, as Finland surrenders...
With Stalin foaming at the mouth about the AA betrayal, I don't think He will be all that eager to sent Russians East, as the Tehran Agreement called for.
He would consider it nulled by the Yalta concessions.
Russia holds a lot more troops along the new European Borders, Sends some to help in rebuilding,* and slowly begins building troops levels in NSahalikin, and along the Manchurian Border.
Stalin would then sit back and watch the AA Allies Fight the Japanese till Japan is ready to surrender, then make his move.

while the Allies need more troops in Europe than OTL the earlier VE day means Operation Downfall starts before the Bomb is ready.


*Mostly guarding the thousands of Finns sent to The Gulags.
 
page 4

He chooses to resign in self-righteous indignation, and the more pragmatic and cooperative Secretary of State Cordell Hull takes over as a caretaker Acting President till January 20, 1945. Acting President Hull pledges to take heed of the people's will in settling the situation in Europe and Japan.
Sorry If Wallace resigns [Debatable] Then Hull Become President, with no Acting involved.
Acting President is something in the 25 Amendment covering temporary incapacitation of the President.
 
Good stuff so far especially about West Poland.Hate to ask this again but what happens to the assasination of Von Roth in Paris which led to Kristalnacht?BTW I do think Himmler and Heydrich would be shot without trial upon the coup being carried out.Also Mr Mussolini might decide to become more moderate and concentrate on domestic policy after the coup.
 
Re; Korea
OTL the US had almost forgotten about Korea in it's planning, No Korea Language training for military Major, Ect.
It wasn't till the Russians began pushing south down the Peninsula, that the US hastly negotiated with the Russians for spheres of Control.
Basically just drawing a line across the middle of the Map. With the US troops not arriving in Korea till after the Surrender.

ITTL The Russians would be less Willing than OTL to Negotiate, giving us a "Boots on the Ground" Line of Demarcation.
ITTL The US forced a Landing and pushed North, thru the Rural South Korea, that OTL was very lightly Garrisoned. With Most troops in the North fighting the Russians
The US forces wouldn't Meet the bulk of the Japanese forces till north of the 38o.
So while the Russians would get the Bulk of the Industrial North, the Americans get farther north. ?But where would the line be ITTL?

Re; Vichy France

OTL the Anglo-Americans had a plan to install Military Mayors in The French towns and Cities, Issue Military script, and pass the cost of the War onto the Vichy French.
De Gaulle and the Free French Stopped this by installing their own Mayors and Officials and issuing their own Money.
In some towns the FF would be setting up their offices while the Vichy Officials were still Packing up next door, and the Troops were still shooting down on the street.
However ITTL with a more rapid collapse of the Western Front, I Doubt if the FF could keep up with the Anglo-American Forces, Allowing the AA, Military to establish Military Governments in French cities.

Re; Indonesia,
OTL Japan set up a ""Independent Government of Indonesia"" in July 1945 Under Shurato?? After the Japanese Surrendered The Anglo Dutch tried too regain Indonesia.
After a short War the Anglo Dutch Recognized The Independence of Indonesia. And Accepted Shurato as a Indonesian Nationalist.

ITTL- With a much larger force in the Pacific, ?Did the Anglo-Dutch move on Indonesia before the Surrender, or even before the Japs set up the ""Independent"" Government.?

Re; Vietman

OTL Ho Chi Mein, and His Three Division of Viet troops declared the Independence of Vietnam shortly after Japans surrender. However The Franco-Americans cast Ho Chi Mein as more Communist than Nationalist.

ITTL With France in Worst Shape, and all the Anglo - American troops in the Area, ?Does Vietnam have any differences?

Re; Italy
OTL after the war there was a Vote on retaining the Monarchy.
Calls for the King to Abdicate and turn the Monarchy over to the much more Popular Crown Prince, followed by a very close Vote with lots of talk of Fraud and other Irregularities, Lead to the Abolishment of the Monarchy.

ITTL with Germany regaining It's Monarchy, ?What Happens in Italy?
Also any Chance that Italy Regains any of It's Colonies, in the Surrender Negotiations.

EDIT
Therefore, Benelux and Scandinavia do not deviate much from OTL trajectory, if anything they are more prosperous from more trade with more prosperous Germany. Only difference, Sweden is in NATO and more pro-western (as are the Norwegians, with the Soviets in Finnmark).

As it concerns France and Italy, there might be significant butterflies at work here, but not from the direction described (sincerely, the butterfly chain that leads to the banning of soc-dem parties in Western Europe seems more Soviet propaganda than anything else): namely, De Gaulle is dead, so the political trajectory of France is deviated in ways I still have to puzzle about.

Morevoer, heightened tensions between the blocks in late 1940s may or may not lead to Communist insurgencies and banning of Communist parties in France and Italy. This may or may not lead to harsh political polarization, with greater instability, or maybe the poltical system adapts when mass following from banned communist parties goes to swell soc-dem and moderate socialist parties (which shall not get banned: I give to French and Italian center-right politicians a bit more political acumen, in 1940s Western Europe, than to behave like South American caudillos). The shock of civil war, albeit brief, is strong, and this might easily lead to a somewhat poorer, more instable France and Italy at least for a while.

Therefore, Germany, Scandinavia, and Benelux are even more affluent as IOTL. France and Italy might be poised for greater instability, possibly causing less affluence, because of left-wing unrest and banning of the communist parties in late 1940s. This might or might not cause long-term instability (as IOTL Greece) or not, as the political spectrum adapts to the lack or marginality of communists (see IOTL Spain after democratization).
OTL in the 50's while rebulding several Million Spanish and Portuguese emigrated to France for jobs in the Booming rebuilding Industries, ITTL I can see them going to Germany, instead of OTL's Turks.
 
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General Zod

Banned
How in the world did I miss this one:eek:
With Stalin foaming at the mouth about the AA betrayal, I don't think He will be all that eager to sent Russians East, as the Tehran Agreement called for.
He would consider it nulled by the Yalta concessions.
Russia holds a lot more troops along the new European Borders, Sends some to help in rebuilding,* and slowly begins building troops levels in NSahalikin, and along the Manchurian Border.
Stalin would then sit back and watch the AA Allies Fight the Japanese till Japan is ready to surrender, then make his move.

while the Allies need more troops in Europe than OTL the earlier VE day means Operation Downfall starts before the Bomb is ready.

This is all true, but expansion in Manchuria was an old Russian strategic objective, so Stalin would be eager to reap some extra war booty against Japan for its own reason, not just to help the AA (not an issue ITTL, indeed), espeically since he conquered less in Europe. So he would want to attack Japan for his own reason, and not to delay too much. Although it is true that with the need to subdue Finland and Poland, he would be able to transfer the bulk Soviet forces in Asia a few months later than America. However, I apply the butterfly (kustified by the fact that the pro-KMT lobby was strong in the GOP) that a large part of this extra US potential is put to good use in beefing Nationalist China up rather than wasted into a direct conventional assault on Japanese Home Islands. Anyway, even if this had not happened, I rather doubt Op. Downfall could have come earlier than the nukes, since it was originally scheduled for 1946.
 
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General Zod

Banned
Sorry If Wallace resigns [Debatable] Then Hull Become President, with no Acting involved.
Acting President is something in the 25 Amendment covering temporary incapacitation of the President.

Technically, you are not right since the Presidential Succession Acts of 1792 and 1886 gave the title of Acting President to the person that performs the duties of the office of President, if both the President and Vice President are dead, have resigned, or are otherwise permanently unable to. In practice, I agree that he would be President in all but official name, since he would keep the office till next election.
 

General Zod

Banned
Good stuff so far especially about West Poland.Hate to ask this again but what happens to the assasination of Von Roth in Paris which led to Kristalnacht?BTW I do think Himmler and Heydrich would be shot without trial upon the coup being carried out.Also Mr Mussolini might decide to become more moderate and concentrate on domestic policy after the coup.

Sorry, but I find your post weird. What has a Valkyrie PoD (1944) has to do with the Kristalnacht ? Are you sure you are not making a mistake with my other TL where Hitler dies after Munich, perhaps (about that, I would say that KN is simply butterflied away) ? Himmler is surely killed during the coup, but Heydrick has been dead for a couple years already.

About Mussolini and the RSI government, I expect that the German Valkyrie junta would purge it of all the pro-Nazi radical fascist elements, and they would do the same in Croatia, Hungary, and Romania.
 

General Zod

Banned
Re; Korea
OTL the US had almost forgotten about Korea in it's planning, No Korea Language training for military Major, Ect.
It wasn't till the Russians began pushing south down the Peninsula, that the US hastly negotiated with the Russians for spheres of Control.
Basically just drawing a line across the middle of the Map. With the US troops not arriving in Korea till after the Surrender.

ITTL The Russians would be less Willing than OTL to Negotiate, giving us a "Boots on the Ground" Line of Demarcation.
ITTL The US forced a Landing and pushed North, thru the Rural South Korea, that OTL was very lightly Garrisoned. With Most troops in the North fighting the Russians
The US forces wouldn't Meet the bulk of the Japanese forces till north of the 38o.
So while the Russians would get the Bulk of the Industrial North, the Americans get farther north. ?But where would the line be ITTL?

My original idea followed your line of reasoning, and placed the line on the next obvious natural border, the 40th parallel and the neck of the Korean peninsula. I later changed it since it was argued that the US would not manage to land in time to stop the Soviets. I would like to see more debate on this specific issue, since I was uncertain myself.

OTL the Anglo-Americans had a plan to install Military Mayors in The French towns and Cities, Issue Military script, and pass the cost of the War onto the Vichy French.
De Gaulle and the Free French Stopped this by installing their own Mayors and Officials and issuing their own Money.
In some towns the FF would be setting up their offices while the Vichy Officials were still Packing up next door, and the Troops were still shooting down on the street.
However ITTL with a more rapid collapse of the Western Front, I Doubt if the FF could keep up with the Anglo-American Forces, Allowing the AA, Military to establish Military Governments in French cities.

Good point and reasoning. This might be one more reason why the AA and the neo-gaullist French become estranged in the long term.

Re; Indonesia,
OTL Japan set up a ""Independent Government of Indonesia"" in July 1945 Under Shurato?? After the Japanese Surrendered The Anglo Dutch tried too regain Indonesia.
After a short War the Anglo Dutch Recognized The Independence of Indonesia. And Accepted Shurato as a Indonesian Nationalist.

ITTL- With a much larger force in the Pacific, ?Did the Anglo-Dutch move on Indonesia before the Surrender, or even before the Japs set up the ""Independent"" Government.?

Quite likely. IMO the path of Indonesia to independence is substantially delayed and more conflictual ITTL, likely happening only after many years of nationalist insurgency. Especially since the Netherlands shall end up in the neo-colonialist French bloc.

Re; Vietman

OTL Ho Chi Mein, and His Three Division of Viet troops declared the Independence of Vietnam shortly after Japans surrender. However The Franco-Americans cast Ho Chi Mein as more Communist than Nationalist.

ITTL With France in Worst Shape, and all the Anglo - American troops in the Area, ?Does Vietnam have any differences?

Yes. ITTL, Ho does not have a backyard haven in Red China, and with greater AA presence in the area, he's crushed. I don't think he would he able to do a successful heel-face turn and paint himself as a safe pro-US anticolonial nationalist, his links to the communists were too blantant. IMO he's crushed by AA occupation forces, and Indochina is handed back to France. In the long term, nationalist insurgency erupts again with Soviet support, and a kind of Vietnam war is fought again, but by France, and throughout Indochina.

Re; Italy
OTL after the war there was a Vote on retaining the Monarchy.
Calls for the King to Abdicate and turn the Monarchy over to the much more Popular Crown Prince, followed by a very close Vote with lots of talk of Fraud and other Irregularities, Lead to the Abolishment of the Monarchy.

ITTL with Germany regaining It's Monarchy, ?What Happens in Italy?
Also any Chance that Italy Regains any of It's Colonies, in the Surrender Negotiations.

As far as I know, talks of fraud were essentially the monarchists being sore losers, but I think that ITTL, with substantially shorter and less harsh German occupation and civil war, the monarchy would win the referendum by a narrow margin, just like it did in OTL Belgium. Even so, I think VE III would still abdicate before the referendum, in order to let his more popular son take the throne and give more chances to the monarchy.

In the long term, Italy would still stabilize under the constitutional monarchy and the rule of the mass parties, even more so since the butterfly of the failed Communist insurgency after the Togliatti assassination leads to the ban of the Communists, the socialists taking their place in the Italian political system, which allowing the realtively ealry (60s) unlocking of political alternance of socialists and christian democrats at the government. This is in turn reduces significantly (even if does not eliminate) chronic Italian problems with corruption. As it concerns foreign policy, Italy would maintain very strong political and economic links with America and Germany, and be one of the most important and loyal members of the Central European NATO/EU bloc led by America, Britain, and Germany, in opposition both to the Soviet bloc and the French bloc. As Germany would be somewhat more prosperous ITTL, so it would be its main European partner, Italy. As it concerns the monarchy, I see very little problems as long as Umberto II keeps the throne, up to early 1980s. He was a fair-minded gentleman, and could have easily been an Italian Juan Carlos. Problems would arise with his son, who is a typical arrogant dumbass spoiled brat, think an aristocratic GWB.
OTL in the 50's while rebulding several Million Spanish and Portuguese emigrated to France for jobs in the Booming rebuilding Industries, ITTL I can see them going to Germany, instead of OTL's Turks.

Yup, I think so, even if there would be a little friction since Spain and Portugal would be in the French bloc. But overall, a more prosperous and larger Germany would draw more Iberian immigration. However, there would also be more immigration from Greece, Croatia, Slovenia, Hungary, West Poland, and West Romania. All those countries would be more prosperous than under Communism, but still see major industrialization later than Germany (or Italy, after the 50s-60s), and so substantial emigration to Germany (and later, Italy).
 
Re; map & china
I think you gave Russia to much of East China.
While Russia would have no trouble against the Warlords in Western China [Sinkiang] in the East the Japanese probably pull their reserves north.
OTL by the time the Pact expired in July 1945, Japan was plenty sure that Russia was going to attack
ITTL The Japanese would see Stalin's supples while Negotiations over renewing the Non aggression pact as a sign of his, renewing the Pact, and his DoW, as a Stab In The Back.
As such Japan would be willing to weaken the forces in the south to throw then at the Russians.
While this may not slow the Russians that much, It would allow the KMT/US forces to advance quicker.
A Japanese Defense of the Great wall, 10 years after they took it from the Chinese.
The Advancing Chinese stop to resupply at the edge of the Great wall DMZ, while the Russians-Japanese fight over the Wall


As It appears that whe will have a lot of American Boys stationed in War torn China, I expect a lot of Chinese Girls to seek out the Strong, Wealthy [Compared] Americans.
Whe are going to have a lot of Chinese War Brides, and IMO less German and French Brides.
?What will be the effect of this, several years down the road?
 
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This is a very interesting timeline. I never thought the plotters would get power in Nazi Germany. This TL is an interesting twist on a the story that I never would imagined. I would like to read more of this. I want to know how the war in the Pacific ends.
 
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