Valentines and vanguards in Crete

This scenario takes place in my APC thread special 'tanks' go to @Cryhavoc101for it.

After Dunkirk and the subsequent months, the British military makes the decision to fortify Crete with tanks and aircraft. But due problems and delays this proves to be a slow process. By the time fall of Greece and subsequent evacuation of the BEF. The defence stands at
one Australian regiment
one mechanized British regiment (Vanguard II)
35 RAF hurricane fighters
50 tanks a mix of A10 and the new Valentine Infantry tanks.

Note: in this scenario the Valentine came much earlier.

How does the battle of Crete go?
How much effort will the Germans put into conquering Crete?
If Crete doesn't fall what effect does it have in the whole Mediterranean/north African campaign and the British war effort?
 
How does the battle of Crete go?
How much effort will the Germans put into conquering Crete?
What battle, FJ don't get sent to fight 50 tanks unless something has gone very wrong and RAF/RN will only make it worse?

35 RAF hurricane fighters with proper support probably doom the invasion by themselves?

OTL they invaded against something that was very weak and had just tried Greece and then be withdrawn in a mess, even then it was close.....

If Crete doesn't fall what effect does it have in the whole Mediterranean/north African campaign and the British war effort?
Makes getting to Malta much easier (air support from east) and opens up some more problems for Italy/Germany bombing oil and raiding Greece/Italian islands....

Biggest effect is on Greece as they still have a government on home soil and with significant forces, no civil war etc...
 
Makes getting to Malta much easier (air support from east) and opens up some more problems for Italy/Germany bombing oil and raiding Greece/Italian islands....

Biggest effect is on Greece as they still have a government on home soil and with significant forces, no civil war etc...

I'm going to guess that the Luftwaffe have to redirected to pound Crete day in day out and keep the RAF and RN out.

The invasion of the USSR is further hamstrung.
 
This scenario takes place in my APC thread special 'tanks' go to @Cryhavoc101for it.

After Dunkirk and the subsequent months, the British military makes the decision to fortify Crete with tanks and aircraft. But due problems and delays this proves to be a slow process. By the time fall of Greece and subsequent evacuation of the BEF. The defence stands at
one Australian regiment
one mechanized British regiment (Vanguard II)
35 RAF hurricane fighters
50 tanks a mix of A10 and the new Valentine Infantry tanks.

Note: in this scenario the Valentine came much earlier.

How does the battle of Crete go?
How much effort will the Germans put into conquering Crete?
If Crete doesn't fall what effect does it have in the whole Mediterranean/north African campaign and the British war effort?

That blokes overrated

So very important for those 'hard of commonwealth' types who think that a Regiment is multiple Battalions when of course it simply means 'a Battalion' unless of course you meant Regiment (see it's bloody hard!)

So did you mean an Australian Infantry Brigade using the Vanguard II 'Rgt' for armoured transport with the Tanks in direct support as a sort of combined arms Brigade?

So perhaps something like

16th Australian Infantry Brigade
2/1st Australian Infantry Battalion
2/2nd Australian Infantry Battalion
2/3rd Australian Infantry Battalion
A Battery/3rd RAA Rgt

6th Divisional Cavalry Regiment - 133 Vanguard II (attached 16th Australian Infantry Brigade)

7th RTR Composite tank Battalion (attached 16th Australian Infantry Brigade)
HQ/B/C Sqdn 7th RTR - with 34 Valentine Infantry tanks
B Sqdn 3rd The Kings Own Hussars - with 16 A10 Cruiser tanks

And have this force covering Maleme and Platanias (Where Greek Infantry forces from 2 battalions have dug in 1 each around the airfield and villiage)

Also check out the OOB for the defenders of Crete and the attacking force - it is significantly more than a single Mechanized Infantry Brigade - so was the intention just for this force to be acting as the 'counter attacking force' not as the sole defenders of the Islands?
 
The invasion of the USSR is further hamstrung.
But I just cant see anything on Crete making the Germans be willing to delay?
I'm going to guess that the Luftwaffe have to redirected to pound Crete day in day out and keep the RAF and RN out.
With all the other needs of LW and the surplus of RAF fighters (even if they are mostly being used uselessly at home) I cant see this as anything but a attritional lose for the LW?

The main early advantage is to escort ships under fighter cover to Malta no matter what happens in NA, this is unlikely to really get LW to be so worried that they need to pull stuff from invasion of USSR, after awards its to late as RAF has far more free assets so can afford to fight especially defensibly.
51d-tNTTEaL._SX355_.jpg

Long term this means NA goes easier due to Malta supplied better and cutting off of supplies to Italy and DAC.

Some time later (42?) they start thinking that bombers would be useful to hit Italy and the Oil to the north even if its more a matter of just forcing defensive fighters to be deployed to cover them away from other fronts.
50 tanks a mix of A10 and the new Valentine Infantry tanks.
I would be interested what AT weapons the FJ actually had to try and deal with them, even 50 MK6 lights might be sufficient....?
 
This scenario takes place in my APC thread special 'tanks' go to @Cryhavoc101for it.

After Dunkirk and the subsequent months, the British military makes the decision to fortify Crete with tanks and aircraft. But due problems and delays this proves to be a slow process. By the time fall of Greece and subsequent evacuation of the BEF. The defence stands at
one Australian regiment
one mechanized British regiment (Vanguard II)
35 RAF hurricane fighters
50 tanks a mix of A10 and the new Valentine Infantry tanks.

Note: in this scenario the Valentine came much earlier.

How does the battle of Crete go?
How much effort will the Germans put into conquering Crete?
If Crete doesn't fall what effect does it have in the whole Mediterranean/north African campaign and the British war effort?
I take it this is in addition to the OTL garrison and forces evacuated from mainland Greece?

Those 35 Hurricanes aren't going to last very long, they amount to 1 squadron without reserves per airfield. Like otl they'll either have been destroyed or evacuated by the time of the invasion.
 
Probably depends on them being deployed to mainland Greece first. The German attack gets squelched, Crete holds, giving the Allies a better grip on the Med supply route.
 
I take it this is in addition to the OTL garrison and forces evacuated from mainland Greece?

Those 35 Hurricanes aren't going to last very long, they amount to 1 squadron without reserves per airfield. Like otl they'll either have been destroyed or evacuated by the time of the invasion.

Answer to 1 yes this includes those forces evacuated from Greece.

Answer to 2 you're right that leaves the hurricanes holding the line until the spitfire MK V comes and whatever reinforcements the Royal navy.
 
But I just cant see anything on Crete making the Germans be willing to delay?

With all the other needs of LW and the surplus of RAF fighters (even if they are mostly being used uselessly at home) I cant see this as anything but a attritional lose for the LW?

The main early advantage is to escort ships under fighter cover to Malta no matter what happens in NA, this is unlikely to really get LW to be so worried that they need to pull stuff from invasion of USSR, after awards its to late as RAF has far more free assets so can afford to fight especially defensibly.
51d-tNTTEaL._SX355_.jpg

Long term this means NA goes easier due to Malta supplied better and cutting off of supplies to Italy and DAC.

Some time later (42?) they start thinking that bombers would be useful to hit Italy and the Oil to the north even if its more a matter of just forcing defensive fighters to be deployed to cover them away from other fronts.

I would be interested what AT weapons the FJ actually had to try and deal with them, even 50 MK6 lights might be sufficient....?

Hitlers concern was the Oil - if only the Bomber command and 8th Air Force commanders had been as concerned!

The LW just wanted an opportunity to revenge themselves against 'The Lords' (Adolf Galland's name for the British) who were the only people to have beaten them so far in WW2

The FJs and supporting units would be equipped with the 3.7cm PAK 36 (being air dropped at Crete!) which would struggle against the Valentine but would defeat the armour of the A10 at 500m

I am not sure if the Stielgranate 41 was issued at this point as it was as I understand it issued only when the gun was found wanting against the heavier Russian tanks - and while it would knock out any tank it did hit, it was only reasonably accurate out to 300 meters

The only other weapon they have is the Panzerbüchse 39 (Anti tank rifle) but again this would struggle against the A10 and be useless verses the Valentine.
 
I would be interested what AT weapons the FJ actually had to try and deal with them, even 50 MK6 lights might be sufficient....?

The most they had was 37mm cannon called the door knocker since it was useless against the French SOMUA S35, B1 and Matilda ("knock knock...no penetration) it would work well against the old A10 cruiser tank and vanguard II troop carrier but not so much against the new Valentine Infantry tank.
 
Where are the British going to get the tanks from? If they had them they would have been sent to Greece and been chewed up there. As someone else suggested some more tanks there may have slowed the Germans down and made them rethink invading Crete.

If they don't invade Crete (and get the FJ chewed up as they did in OTL) would they have been more willing to attack Malta which was a much more important target?
 
If they don't invade Crete (and get the FJ chewed up as they did in OTL) would they have been more willing to attack Malta which was a much more important target?

Crete is still a threat it's has substantial amount of enemy aircraft if the Germans needed to besiege Malta they need to control Crete first.
 
I would be interested what AT weapons the FJ actually had to try and deal with them, even 50 MK6 lights might be sufficient....?

The Germans took this to Crete. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_Leichtgeschütz_40. Not that it matters with 50 Vallentines and A10's they're not going to be able to capture the airfields to fly them in. The Airfields are the critical points and Freyburg knows this, so it's likely the tanks will be divided between them and with the assigned infantry will be well able to deal with the German Paras. Remember the Germans jumped armed only with pistols. Their rifles and heavier weapons were dropped in separate containers. The Mechanised infantry will be used as a mobile reserve and likely sent to deal with the Germans desperate attempts to land reinforcements on the beaches.

 
The Germans took this to Crete. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_Leichtgeschütz_40. Not that it matters with 50 Vallentines and A10's they're not going to be able to capture the airfields to fly them in.

The Valentine was all but immune to the WWI derived AP round this used, but the A10 was vulnerable at ranges where that was expected to be accurate.

Problem of the UK tanks is that the 2 pdr could only be used as a big sniper rifle
 
The Valentine was all but immune to the WWI derived AP round this used, but the A10 was vulnerable at ranges where that was expected to be accurate.

Problem of the UK tanks is that the 2 pdr could only be used as a big sniper rifle

Most tanks of this period lacked a good enough HE shell - the majority of tanks in service in 1941 mounted between a 37mm and 47mm gun and the HE content of this sized shell is about that of a hand grenade - the British decided not to bother (although there was a lot of 2 pounder HE rounds made in the war??? So its strange that thy did not carry a few rounds?)

Only tanks like the PZIV with its short 75mm and the British CS tanks with their 76mm QF 3" Howitzer (which were mainly used to lay down smoke rounds to cover movement at this time of the war) and of course the T34 and KV1 tanks with their 76.2mm guns had a decent HE shell in 1941

Still verse lightly equipped FJs, dozen's of mobile pill boxes each with a BESA MMG rattling away at them are going to have their belt buckles and noses pressed firmly to the dirt busy trying to improve their 1 on 1 relationship with God almighty.

It would rob the Paratroopers of movement and initiative while gifting it to (in this case) firmly to the Australian and Greek Infantry.
 
Unfortunately, until the battle of Greece, Crete is a strategic backwater and there's no reason to send reinforcements there - not when Malta is more vulnerable and more valuable, there's an actual war going on in North Africa and also Greece.

Best bet would seem to be something like salvaging more from Greece.
 
Let's see...

The hurricanes are outdone the MKII in its clean form can at 560 the problem is

12 machine guns or 4 20mm cannons add weight

Volkes sand filter makes drag

+ Those = -30 = 530 speed

This means that that spitfire MK V fighters will be rushed to get to Crete.

Those paratroopers would have a very tough time even with air control.
 
The problem is in May 1941 Spitfire V's were in very short supply and held in Britain to combat the new FW190's tip and run raids.
 
Those 35 Hurricanes aren't going to last very long, they amount to 1 squadron without reserves per airfield. Like otl they'll either have been destroyed or evacuated by the time of the invasion.
But compared to OTL isn't even 35 extra fighters on working bases a great improvement? (what did they have in OTL a few hastily evacuated fighter/bombers (33 total?)) and a few FAA fullmars?)

The FJs and supporting units would be equipped with the 3.7cm PAK 36 (being air dropped at Crete!) which would struggle against the Valentine but would defeat the armour of the A10 at 500m

The only other weapon they have is the Panzerbüchse 39 (Anti tank rifle) but again this would struggle against the A10 and be useless verses the Valentine.
Does anybody know how many would be dropped with the number of FJs used? (and even then we can assume that a number will not actually survive the flight/drop/get collected)

Unfortunately, until the battle of Greece, Crete is a strategic backwater and there's no reason to send reinforcements there - not when Malta is more vulnerable and more valuable, there's an actual war going on in North Africa and also Greece.

Best bet would seem to be something like salvaging more from Greece.
What about just having the local commanders be much more risk adverse and not want to risk everything even if london said to go?

Say Freyberg and Blamey talk to Menzies and actually realise they have been lied to and set up a back up plan of holding Crete rather than risking everything on the mainland?
 
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