UST(United States of Texas)

Here is my alternate timeline. Do you think this is plausible?

Before war of 1812

US history as in our timeline

War of 1812


Drawn out and results in a North South split. The South is basically everything below the Mason Dixon Line. Above that is the North. The British integrate Seattle bay into Canada.


After War of 1812


Something like the Mexican-American war happens but in this alternate timeline, it is more like the Mexican-Texan war as Texas stays independent from the US. After the war, more southern settlers go westward to Texas. Due to the Manifest Destiny ideology, Texas expands westward and reaches the California coast first whereas the North is stuck with the Oregon territory. Here is what the map looks like:

RRHuZrO.jpg


Then everything stays stable until 1860 when yet another war is declared, this time the Civil war.

The South and Texas are on the same side of the war and they win. Slavery spreads throughout the North. But no conquering has been done really, just preparation for it.

Zn2nU12.jpg


Then everything stays calm in the US and Texas, slavery is abolished peacefully, and it isn't until WWII that Texas goes to war again. Texas stayed neutral during WWI, preparing its military for the eventual WWII. Lots of both women and men join the Texan military. The South gets integrated into Texas. The USA starts to feel nervous.

EuSnfuM.jpg


WWII

Texas sides on the Axis. It destroys what is left of the USA due to military size and a better military strategy. Supersonic bomber planes are developed in Texas so not only do bombs explode but the sonic boom also does significant damage. Texas wins the Texan-American war which is part of this alternate WWII. It then integrates what is left of the US and instead of the United States of America, you have the United States of Texas. Texas has been breaking up into states this whole time but the central government is in Houston, Old Texas(Old Texas as in the area of the original Republic of Texas).

QSJNHje.jpg
 
With the right set of catalyst, anything is possible. Not probable, but possible.

What you need to figure out is what your catalysts are. Setting aside the is "extended war of 1812" the first question I would ask, is how does Texas get a large enough population as to allow it to expand to California. It's well and good to say, Manifest destiny caused it, but that's a cop out. You have to have a critical mass of population to enable it to grab California.

One thing I don't get is the "Mexican" slavery in Texas idea. Early 19th century Texans were mostly transplanted southerners. While there was certainly plenty of bad blood between Anglos and Tejanos, it never strayed towards slavery. 19th century Texans in the world you're postulating would be more likely IMO, to mirror their Southern cousins.
 
Well I was told by someone on a different message board that African slavery was started by the Europeans and that since Europe and Africa are both very far away from Texas, Texas would aim to have slaves closer to home, in other words Mexican slaves. I mean, that is just 1 border crossing and not thousands of miles on the ocean. Even if Asia got involved in the slave trade, it would not be all that much less distance I think to go by boat from Texas to China, than from China to Africa, than from Africa back to Texas than it would be for the European side of the slave trade. On the other hand, you've got Mexico which is at most maybe 1000 miles or so to the border. This is why I think that if Texas did stay independent from the US, there would be Mexican slavery in Texas and African slavery eastward of Texas.
 
Well I was told by someone on a different message board that African slavery was started by the Europeans and that since Europe and Africa are both very far away from Texas, Texas would aim to have slaves closer to home, in other words Mexican slaves. I mean, that is just 1 border crossing and not thousands of miles on the ocean. Even if Asia got involved in the slave trade, it would not be all that much less distance I think to go by boat from Texas to China, than from China to Africa, than from Africa back to Texas than it would be for the European side of the slave trade. On the other hand, you've got Mexico which is at most maybe 1000 miles or so to the border. This is why I think that if Texas did stay independent from the US, there would be Mexican slavery in Texas and African slavery eastward of Texas.
Texas wouldn't really need a slave trade to begin with, by 1807 the US had cut off from the Slave Trade, however, slavery continued (at least in the South) until the death of the CSA. If the UST is fascist or something then maybe it would deem Tejanos inferior but by that point the Anglo and Tejano would have coexisted for so long that one being deemed inferior over the other wouldn't really work, at least in my opinion.
 
Well I was told by someone on a different message board that African slavery was started by the Europeans and that since Europe and Africa are both very far away from Texas, Texas would aim to have slaves closer to home, in other words Mexican slaves. I mean, that is just 1 border crossing and not thousands of miles on the ocean. Even if Asia got involved in the slave trade, it would not be all that much less distance I think to go by boat from Texas to China, than from China to Africa, than from Africa back to Texas than it would be for the European side of the slave trade. On the other hand, you've got Mexico which is at most maybe 1000 miles or so to the border. This is why I think that if Texas did stay independent from the US, there would be Mexican slavery in Texas and African slavery eastward of Texas.

Too easy for Mexicans to escape back to Mexico, whereas Africans would need to find a boat and know how to use it.

Mexicans can also blend in better when on the run.
 
Erm, well.....it's honestly an interesting TL, but while such a thing might have been possible.....it definitely wouldn't have been plausible.

One thing I don't get is the "Mexican" slavery in Texas idea. Early 19th century Texans were mostly transplanted southerners. While there was certainly plenty of bad blood between Anglos and Tejanos, it never strayed towards slavery. 19th century Texans in the world you're postulating would be more likely IMO, to mirror their Southern cousins.

Basically this. Hell, there were Tejanos honored for their defense of the RoT from Santa Anna's incursions IOTL, including during the defense of the Alamo! So I think you'd need a radically different *Texas for that to be even really possible without a truckload of particularly dubious handwaving.
 
How can the Civil War still happen if "The South" is a different nation?
Also, why would Slavery spread through the North?
 
I don't know that I would tell the OP, this just couldn't happen, although IMO, it does stretch the bounds of plausibility.

I'd say this, though, @caters, if you want helpful feedback in developing your timeline, while the maps are cool and help you to frame what you would like to see unfold, IMO, you're putting the cart before the horse. Nothing inherently wrong with that. Lots of us come up with a set of ideas from which we'll work back to develop a timeline.

What I would suggest is look at your War of 1812. What happens that causes it to last longer? Also, how does it end? Do the English put the hurt on the Yanks or does it end similar to our TL, just later? Also, if you're going to use the idea of a longer war, how does that longer war impact immigration to Texas? If things between Mexico and Spain mostly play out according to our TL (related to the Latin American wars of independence), you still have a fertile situation for American immigration to Texas.

I've worked on an ASB Texas timeline, and finding plausible ways of increasing the flow of settlers exponentially, isn't as easy as "it just happened."

I do want to circle back around to the idea of slavery. You could have your Anglos come to an understanding with the Mexican Creoles who were already in Texas. Debt Peonage was not uncommon in Mexico during the early part of your TL. It's possible you could have a hybrid slave and peonage system (or even one that ditches racial slavery for the economic slavery of peonage, w/out regard to race). Something like this is what developed in the South in the years after the Civil War, although it had a far lengthier track record in Mexico.

Anyway, those are just a few ideas. But above all, if you want to play in the sandbox of your TL, then start with your extended War of 1812 and go on from there. I promise, there are plenty of us here that will give you all the feedback you want (as well as plenty that you don't) :biggrin:
 
Top