USSR win the coldwar, America collapses.

Would it be entirely impossible for this to happen (not as bad, necessarily) in the United States?

Its not as if the environmental conditions of the '70s were edenic, but it seems to have been taken up to 11 in the USSR and China.

Actually, corrective actions in the US started all the way back in the Theodore Roosevelt Administration. Things like unbreathable air are issues that can bring people together from ALL political stripes from far left to far right. Only the greedy rich, living OUTSIDE the polluted cities, while gaining the $$$ from the industrial facilities they own, have the luxury of playing the role of the callous Robber Barons. However, I myself remember events in the 1960s and 70s where air quality became so bad in some cities that people were literally storming mayor's offices and governors mansions demanding that factories be temporarily closed down until modern air filtration systems could be put in place. I am referring to New York City, Savannah, Birmingham and Montgomery (Alabama), and others.

In 1978 I was driven through Savannah, and the air was so dirty it was BROWN!:eek: You could smell the city 20 miles away. In 2004, same city, its air was as clean and clear as my home town.:) So unless the POD has the US becoming a hardcore out-and-out dictatorship, complete with Secret Police and a full Reign of Terror...

EDIT: Even the Greedy Rich will be wanting clean water coming out of the faucet.

2nd EDIT: I'm sorry to say that pun will be keeping you out of heaven Elfwine. Say hi to my 4th grade school teacher, Mrs. Sunden, when you get to Hell.:D
 
Actually, corrective actions in the US started all the way back in the Theodore Roosevelt Administration. Things like unbreathable air are issues that can bring people together from ALL political stripes from far left to far right. Only the greedy rich, living OUTSIDE the polluted cities, while gaining the $$$ from the industrial facilities they own, have the luxury of playing the role of the callous Robber Barons. However, I myself remember events in the 1960s and 70s where air quality became so bad in some cities that people were literally storming mayor's offices and governors mansions demanding that factories be temporarily closed down until modern air filtration systems could be put in place. I am referring to New York City, Savannah, Birmingham and Montgomery (Alabama), and others.

In 1978 I was driven through Savannah, and the air was so dirty it was BROWN!:eek: You could smell the city 20 miles away. In 2004, same city, its air was as clean and clear as my home town.:) So unless the POD has the US becoming a hardcore out-and-out dictatorship, complete with Secret Police and a full Reign of Terror...

EDIT: Even the Greedy Rich will be wanting clean water coming out of the faucet.

But the Greedy Rich might not be concerned about anywhere outside their area, and might be able to interfere with vigorous laws (or enforcement of laws) on these things. That could see things deteriorate pretty badly - certainly an anti-Muir sort of thing, if not necessarily brown air.

And wait, you remember events in the 60s?

Not to be a rude youngin' (of 25), but how old are you? :confused:

2nd EDIT: I'm sorry to say that pun will be keeping you out of heaven Elfwine. Say hi to my 4th grade school teacher, Mrs. Sunden, when you get to Hell.:D

Will do. Can I ask why she's there before I go?
 
But the Greedy Rich might not be concerned about anywhere outside their area, and might be able to interfere with vigorous laws (or enforcement of laws) on these things. That could see things deteriorate pretty badly - certainly an anti-Muir sort of thing, if not necessarily brown air.

True, except the events I'm describing are "villagers with torches and pitchforks" circumstances. The kind of events where payoffs tend to go by the wayside. Especially when the actions of factory shutdowns are enforced by (choking for breath) Federal Judges.:mad: $$$ will only get the Greedy Rich so far.

And wait, you remember events in the 60s?

Not to be a rude youngin' (of 25), but how old are you? :confused:

51.:(

Will do. Can I ask why she's there before I go?

For getting away with being semi-senile while having responsibility (and the absolute power that goes with it) for thirty schoolchildren in the nine year old age range. For using her union membership to shield herself from any scrutiny from the school board and the PTA. For taking advantage of an elementary school principal too concerned with reaching retirement himself (and his pension) to make any waves (my K-6 school was built before WWII and virtually the entire workforce was looking at a mass retirement within 5-10 years of each other). For having a naturally vicious and sadistic mentality that could easily equal that of Nurse Ratched. For never smiling once in the whole of that school year. For engaging in taunts, deliberate humiliations, and outright beatings all zeroed in on me (remember, this was 1969, not 2011, but not 1869 either). For using a teaching style not in the sense of what was practiced in 1969, or even in the late 1920s when she received her teaching degree, but as SHE experienced as a child in or about the early 1900s. For failing me in all English and handwriting courses in all three grading periods because of my clumsy left-handed style of writing. For failing me in virtually every course more on the grounds of indulging her personal dislike for a nine year old than for actual failure. For the look of disgust on her face when she told me I was going on to the 5th Grade* (reflecting that the school was already aware of what this woman was, and was "passing" her entire class as their answer to the problem.:mad:). For the fact that it was only the year AFTER I left her personal corner of Hell that she found herself being escorted out of the school building by the police and told not to return.**
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-To find myself with my 5th Grade teacher, Mr. Ray Lutz. The absolutely best instructor I ever had in my life. I have no doubt at all that if it wasn't for him, my guidance counselor Mr. McKnight, and of course my mother, I would have killed myself by age 14. It was only many years later that I discovered Mr. Lutz was Jewish. Which is why I hate Anti-Semites with such a passion.

**-According to a next-door friend of mine who had that class, having a supremely non-confrontational heavily bullied personality like mine in her class, combined with her being one year older, and one year deeper into her senility, caused her to go hog wild on her whole class that year. Some of the kids went to their parents, who went to the PTA, who went to the school board, who went to the Superintendent of Schools, who made an investigation of his own, and arranged for her to be forced out (with pension, she'd been retirement eligible for many years) on the last day before Christmas Vacation. Her replacement? Miss Bobiwick. I first knew something was up when everyone in my class could hear the screaming cheers in the schoolroom next door (Sunden's/Bobiwick's). I wanted to throw up. I DID cry. When I first saw Miss Bobiwick, well... A face that could launch a thousand ships, an ass like a pair of pears, legs up to her neck, and a pair of torpedoes that I KNOW would have been fake if I'd seen them today.:( There ain't no justice. Why did all my teachers have to have one foot in the nursing home and the other in the cemetery? How about you?

End (very long) rant.:eek:
 
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Replicator

Banned
First episode of "Sliders". The Domino Theory

The USSR/China wins the Korean war - and then one country after another falls to communism. The US assets declined steadily untill the USA collapsed around 1990.
 
First episode of "Sliders". The Domino Theory

The USSR/China wins the Korean war - and then one country after another falls to communism. The US assets declined steadily untill the USA collapsed around 1990.

The US one dollar bill with Nikita Kruschev's face on it was cute. Abe Lincoln's statue being switched to Vladimir Lenin's. And the local homeless man (always making Communist indoctrination speeches to flocks of pigeons in the park) now running for election (as the only party approved candidate) to the US Senate, making speeches before cheering crowds!:D
 
Or you need there to be an oil price rise in the late 80's rather than a collapse.

Have the Iran / Iraq war really go regional with Saudi and Kuwaiti assets being targeted (USSR support to Iran?). War effectively curtails production in Gulf by 50% and suddenly Gorbachev doesn't need glasnost so badly.

Would USA collapse - doubt it. Could Gorbachev becom Putin? Certainly.
 
Or you need there to be an oil price rise in the late 80's rather than a collapse.

Have the Iran / Iraq war really go regional with Saudi and Kuwaiti assets being targeted (USSR support to Iran?). War effectively curtails production in Gulf by 50% and suddenly Gorbachev doesn't need glasnost so badly.

Would USA collapse - doubt it. Could Gorbachev becom Putin? Certainly.

Like you said it wouldn't cause the collapse of the US which what is asked for here.
 
True, except the events I'm describing are "villagers with torches and pitchforks" circumstances. The kind of events where payoffs tend to go by the wayside. Especially when the actions of factory shutdowns are enforced by (choking for breath) Federal Judges.:mad: $$$ will only get the Greedy Rich so far.

True. It might go quite far, though.


That's not old. Just older than I thought you were.

For getting away with being semi-senile while having responsibility (and the absolute power that goes with it) for thirty schoolchildren in the nine year old age range. For using her union membership to shield herself from any scrutiny from the school board and the PTA. For taking advantage of an elementary school principal too concerned with reaching retirement himself (and his pension) to make any waves (my K-6 school was built before WWII and virtually the entire workforce was looking at a mass retirement within 5-10 years of each other). For having a naturally vicious and sadistic mentality that could easily equal that of Nurse Ratched. For never smiling once in the whole of that school year. For engaging in taunts, deliberate humiliations, and outright beatings all zeroed in on me (remember, this was 1969, not 2011, but not 1869 either). For using a teaching style not in the sense of what was practiced in 1969, or even in the late 1920s when she received her teaching degree, but as SHE experienced as a child in or about the early 1900s. For failing me in all English and handwriting courses in all three grading periods because of my clumsy left-handed style of writing. For failing me in virtually every course more on the grounds of indulging her personal dislike for a nine year old than for actual failure. For the look of disgust on her face when she told me I was going on to the 5th Grade* (reflecting that the school was already aware of what this woman was, and was "passing" her entire class as their answer to the problem.:mad:). For the fact that it was only the year AFTER I left her personal corner of Hell that she found herself being escorted out of the school building by the police and told not to return.**
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-To find myself with my 5th Grade teacher, Mr. Ray Lutz. The absolutely best instructor I ever had in my life. I have no doubt at all that if it wasn't for him, my guidance counselor Mr. McKnight, and of course my mother, I would have killed myself by age 14. It was only many years later that I discovered Mr. Lutz was Jewish. Which is why I hate Anti-Semites with such a passion.

**-According to a next-door friend of mine who had that class, having a supremely non-confrontational heavily bullied personality like mine in her class, combined with her being one year older, and one year deeper into her senility, caused her to go hog wild on her whole class that year. Some of the kids went to their parents, who went to the PTA, who went to the school board, who went to the Superintendent of Schools, who made an investigation of his own, and arranged for her to be forced out (with pension, she'd been retirement eligible for many years) on the last day before Christmas Vacation. Her replacement? Miss Bobiwick. I first knew something was up when everyone in my class could hear the screaming cheers in the schoolroom next door (Sunden's/Bobiwick's). I wanted to throw up. I DID cry. When I first saw Miss Bobiwick, well... A face that could launch a thousand ships, an ass like a pair of pears, legs up to her neck, and a pair of torpedoes that I KNOW would have been fake if I'd seen them today.:( There ain't no justice. Why did all my teachers have to have one foot in the nursing home and the other in the cemetery? How about you?

End (very long) rant.:eek:

I think all my teachers were fairly reasonable, certainly by comparison. (and not just as in not malicious or ancient).

That has to count as a truly ugly list of flaws in a teacher though. Old is one thing. Senile is one thing. That kind of maliciousness is like the anti-good teacher.
 
True. It might go quite far, though.

My point being that the breaking point had already been reached OTL. When asmatics, the elderly, and young children are dying, and everyone else is choking, the authorities are left in the position of telling the Greedy Rich: "Thank you for the payoffs, we'll take care of you the next time, but NOT NOW!":mad:

That's not old. Just older than I thought you were.

Wait till you've doubled your age and see if you still feel that way.:(

I think all my teachers were fairly reasonable, certainly by comparison. (and not just as in not malicious or ancient).

Same for me, by comparison. Unfortunately, my 3rd Grade teacher (Mrs.Anderson) was no great shakes either. So I didn't have a good yardstick available for comparisons. Can you imagine the humiliation of being dragged by your 3rd grade teacher into your old 2nd grade teader's (Mrs.Kunselman) office so she could demand (in my presence) why Kunselman had passed me into the 3rd grade? CHRIST! The behavior old women got away with in those days.:mad: My 2nd was worse than my 1st, my 3rd was much worse than my 2nd, and my 4th was utterly beyond the pale.

That has to count as a truly ugly list of flaws in a teacher though. Old is one thing. Senile is one thing. That kind of maliciousness is like the anti-good teacher.

It is amazing the things you notice looking back as an adult compared to the distorted view of a child. What looked like just plain meanness was the hatred of the old for the young. Some people should just never be teachers. I never learned a damned thing that whole year.
 
usertron2020 said:
For getting away with being semi-senile while having responsibility (and the absolute power that goes with it) for thirty schoolchildren in the nine year old age range. For using her union membership to shield herself from any scrutiny from the school board and the PTA. For taking advantage of an elementary school principal too concerned with reaching retirement himself (and his pension) to make any waves (my K-6 school was built before WWII and virtually the entire workforce was looking at a mass retirement within 5-10 years of each other). For having a naturally vicious and sadistic mentality that could easily equal that of Nurse Ratched. For never smiling once in the whole of that school year. For engaging in taunts, deliberate humiliations, and outright beatings all zeroed in on me (remember, this was 1969, not 2011, but not 1869 either). For using a teaching style not in the sense of what was practiced in 1969, or even in the late 1920s when she received her teaching degree, but as SHE experienced as a child in or about the early 1900s. For failing me in all English and handwriting courses in all three grading periods because of my clumsy left-handed style of writing. For failing me in virtually every course more on the grounds of indulging her personal dislike for a nine year old than for actual failure. For the look of disgust on her face when she told me I was going on to the 5th Grade* (reflecting that the school was already aware of what this woman was, and was "passing" her entire class as their answer to the problem.). For the fact that it was only the year AFTER I left her personal corner of Hell that she found herself being escorted out of the school building by the police and told not to return.**
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*-To find myself with my 5th Grade teacher, Mr. Ray Lutz. The absolutely best instructor I ever had in my life. I have no doubt at all that if it wasn't for him, my guidance counselor Mr. McKnight, and of course my mother, I would have killed myself by age 14. It was only many years later that I discovered Mr. Lutz was Jewish. Which is why I hate Anti-Semites with such a passion.

**-According to a next-door friend of mine who had that class, having a supremely non-confrontational heavily bullied personality like mine in her class, combined with her being one year older, and one year deeper into her senility, caused her to go hog wild on her whole class that year. Some of the kids went to their parents, who went to the PTA, who went to the school board, who went to the Superintendent of Schools, who made an investigation of his own, and arranged for her to be forced out (with pension, she'd been retirement eligible for many years) on the last day before Christmas Vacation. Her replacement? Miss Bobiwick. I first knew something was up when everyone in my class could hear the screaming cheers in the schoolroom next door (Sunden's/Bobiwick's). I wanted to throw up. I DID cry. When I first saw Miss Bobiwick, well... A face that could launch a thousand ships, an ass like a pair of pears, legs up to her neck, and a pair of torpedoes that I KNOW would have been fake if I'd seen them today. There ain't no justice. Why did all my teachers have to have one foot in the nursing home and the other in the cemetery? How about you?

End (very long) rant.
Wow, as a fellow tangential speaker who aspires to one day be able to rant with this quality, I am very impressed. Although you only exist as an anonymous person who I will probably never meet, I feel deeply sympathetic to these troubles. Indeed, my high school experience, well not nearly this bad, has not been great either, I can also empathize at least a bit. That woman sounds terrible. I don't believe in hell, but if there is one, Hitler, Stalin and that woman are about the only people I can imagine who wholly deserve to be there. Also, one your digression on about the hot teacher, all I can say is -- beautiful women, how they control all of us helpless mere mortals (by that I mean men) without even trying :rolleyes:. At least you are not bitter about the whole thing ;).

Back to the thread, this discussion is really interesting to me. I think we've all reached the conclusion that the OP is simply not possible without a ridiculous amount of bad stuff happening to the US and good stuff happening to the USSR, to a point where although it is not ASB it is close enough to it that there is little difference beyond clear cut definition. However, it is very possible to do this with a post-October Revolution POD, but the chances diminish radically after Stalin's takeover and more so as Stalinist policies permeate every aspect of Russian society and change it so radically. In my opinion, this is also when the USSR went from a flawed socialist state that could still become the more more egalitarian society I dream of the the authoritarian nightmare it is remembered for being.

Scipio
 
The Afro-American Homeland Plan

How long would it take to have a post Stalin's death POD that allows the USSR to outlive the united states? For them to see a victory where the US implodes in on itself and then sets itself back up with a Soviet Style Comintern Government.

Well, let's try. Out of an ASB-ish means I'm going to take my methods from various future thrillers . . .

The Soviet Intelligence Services rarely coordinated their efforts; at best what came to pass was that the KGB stole sources and agents from the other services. Nevertheless, four of the covert operations produced by the different arms of the Soviet Intelligences helped bring about the decline of the Main Enemy.

The Afro-American Homeland [Originally "Negro Republic"]
(Note: The term "African-American" was not quite in use then)

This was a revival of a thirties propaganda line by the CPUSA. An officer of the KGB worked to funnel resources to a Negro/Black/Afro-American activist, who in turn worked with a number of other like-minded individuals. They took office in the political and economic structure of the Main Enemy, rising to positions of authority. In a key element, one of the agents managed to rise to the position of Deputy Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, where he managed to suppress all investigation that might uncover the plot.

The lead cadre recruited others, who recruited a paramilitary force that had ties to various gangs and other such bodies.

The plot was to seize the island of Manhattan, declare an "Afro-American Homeland" and demand the set-aside of various states (candidates included New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia) as the final territory of the homeland.

(Source: several novels of the period, principally Night of Power by Spider Robinson and Siege by Edwin Corley. The more likely result of this effort would not be an Independent Afro-American homeland, but rather increased racial tensions in the country after the plot was revealed. The FBI doesn't control all internal security measures.)

[To Be Continued . . .]
 
The Environmentalist Community Plan

Continuing with the Grand Plot Against the Main Enemy . . .

The Environmentalist Community

The GRU responded to this by exploiting ties to various environmentalist activist groups. The groups would use smuggled nuclear weapons to intimidate the Main Enemy into recognizing their takeover of states in the Pacific Northwest. The community would be organized along environmentalist, communalist, non-hierarchial, egalitarian, feminist, eco-socialist doctrines and so would be a sustainable green society.

(Source: Ernest Callenbach's Ecotopia. James Nicoll wrote a far more devastating review of this than I ever could manage; check under "Millennial Reviews XXVIII" on the Google Groups archive in rec.arts.sf.written)
 
The Fundamental Contradictions of Capitalism Plan

And then, the two lesser groups evolved their own schemes:

Free at Sea Plan

The Naval GRU (a separate body) had an agent with contacts with a degenerate capitalist of views that were bizarre even for a capitalist. He proposed to recruit a band of escapees from the slave navies of the two seemingly-opposed-yet-totally-connected alleged rivals and wage free-society war against them both.

The Naval GRU proposed providing him with a Soviet submarine and crew, along with what defectors they could get or coerce from the navies of the Main Enemy and the Main Enemy's Main Ally. Such was his self-delusion that he could easily believe that they were of his own belief, and that the Soviet-provided refittings in Indonesian dockyards were being paid for by various believers in his even more deluded reactionary thought.

(Source: Illuminatus Trilogy by Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson. I think the implausibility of the plot speaks for itself, and one could expect Hagbard Celine and his gold-plated submarine would have broken up and sunk accidentally if not intentionally.)

Peace through Blackmail Plan

Not to be outdone, the International Department of the CPUSSR would exploit its ties to another capitalist who was known to be both reclusive and innovative. He -- or actually one of the aides who fulfilled his every whim -- would be persuaded that he could bring peace to the world through announcing that he had remotely-detonatable nuclear weapons hidden in all great world capitols.

That the Soviets would provide the weapons, and that the ones in Moscow and the like would be inoperable, wouldn't be within their comprehension. However, when it came out that the Great Hero and Innovator was planning atomic blackmail against his own country, there would be a profound shock to the morale of the Main Enemy.

(Source: "To Howard Hughes: A Modest Proposal" by Joe Haldeman. Which utterly failed to take into account Hughes's utter fear of nuclear weapons or his obssessive-compulsive disorder. Even if he had been able to overcome the former, such was his need to plan matters out that at the time of his death, he would have been close to finishing his ninth consecutive 300-page memorandum describing every detail of the acquisition, transport, placement, notification, and control of the weapons. Understand, this is a man who wrote a memorandum describing a nine-step procedure for opening a can of fruit!)
 
Conclusion

As I've pointed out, none of these could have worked as proposed. However, if they had even almost gone off, the fact of such disruption and unrest could have provided a great shock to American morale.

Would it have been enough to bring about a disintegration of the country similar to OTL's collapse of the Soviet Union? Probably not. There might have been a decided national decline.
 
Major Major

You are the first person in decades that I've seen use the term Afro-American. I only remember it as a term popular in the late sixties/early seventies, until the "Afro" hairstyle went out of vogue, and eventually became considered a sign of outright unkemptness. Today, if you say it, or try to tell anyone about it, they don't believe you and think that it's a racist remark (and with politics being all about perception, I suppose that now, to present day ears, it is).
 
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