USSR joins the Axis Powers

Status
Not open for further replies.
... selling a war against Nazis and Commies is much easier for Roosevelt than selling one for just the Nazis, "The enemies of democracy are rallying together, so must its friends!" the agitprop almost writes itself. One of the few sensible policy decisions of Hitler in the time frame up until Pearl was to try and delay US entry into the war as long as possible...again another argument against a Berlin-Moscow alliance.

that argues against a Berlin-Tokyo alliance also? which provided no economic and questionable military benefit.

certainly was window of opportunity after Japan declined to sign Pact of Steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Steel for an about face?

sign a Tripartite Pact of Germany-Italy-USSR.
 
What would have happened if, in mid-late 1940, the Soviet Union joined the Axis?

The partition of the British Empire is what happens. You don't own 25% of the surface of the Earth without causing greedy dictators to picture carving you up like a turkey. Stalin's immediate list would be - defeat Finland, annex the Straights and force Turkey into an alliance with Moscow, advance Soviet influence into the Balkans and Persian Gulf and Middle East while dividing Japan from Germany for the option of war in the Far East.

Since Hitler intended to attack Russia and was aware of the broad outlines of the above, the question for him by November 1940 was whether letting Stalin in on the party, then turning on him later was the better move, or finishing Stalin first then turning back west. He picked the second.
 
POD: The Allies attempt Operation Pike, which goes disastrously, and leads to greater cooperation between the USSR and the Axis.
 

Deleted member 1487

POD: The Allies attempt Operation Pike, which goes disastrously, and leads to greater cooperation between the USSR and the Axis.
In that case Soviet invasion of Iran and Turkey to get at Syria and Iraq. Bloodbath ensues. Not sure if the Germans would take a Soviet expeditionary air force in France, but their big 4 engine bombers would be very useful for night bombing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petlyakov_Pe-8
 
Indeed, hell imagine if the Barbarossa is postponed (assuming Hitler decides to finnish UK first), perhaps the germans might even get interested in Pe-8s with german engines!:eek:

The italians sent 170 aircraft in the Battle of Britain (and did almost nothing of import), the soviets could easily send 1700 or 2700 without breaking a sweat. You could have Luftwaffe bombing by day, and VVS by night. Sounds familiar? I know this is perhaps a bit far fetched and probably the germans would not want such extensive deployoments from VVS in their own "sphere", but still the soviets could commit THOUSANDS of tanks and airplanes and SEVERAL millions of troops wherever they choose to strike. The Axis would have suddenly at least doubled in stregth.

Good ol' Britain would be in for some much worse times than OTL, even if (somehow) they repel an invasion, it's by-bye Africa, ME, Gibraltar and later on possibly going as far as India and asian colonies (to Japan which would have smelled blood by now). It would be reduced to an island fortress and likely there would be some kind of armistice by now. I don't think that with a full german blockade, with some likely soviet and even italian help, they could survive to fight on. And i don't think for a moment the americans will stick their neck out for the UK in what appears to be a losing battle and a question of time. They didn't in 1940 when they were expecting even the UK to fall, they would not get in the war now in even worse conditions, except if the japanese still attack of course, and if no german and/or soviet DoW, then likely against only Japan.

As for the atomic bomb that i see mentioned always, well if the US leadership is dumb enough to think couple of bombs will suddenly make Germany and/or USSR to surrender (assuming that they are not fighting at this point), they can try to drop it, only to expose the US and UK to the wrath of whatever the germans and soviets can come with for revenge (gas, chemical attacks, later probably nuclear weapons too). It will get unbelievably bloody for both sides (yes i know about Vegetarian and so on), but imo i would guess dictatorships would have greater "staying power" so to say compared to US and especially UK in that kind of no quarter, no mercy war that it would have become (if the americans start dropping atomic weapons).
 
Last edited:
that argues against a Berlin-Tokyo alliance also? which provided no economic and questionable military benefit.

certainly was window of opportunity after Japan declined to sign Pact of Steel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pact_of_Steel for an about face?

sign a Tripartite Pact of Germany-Italy-USSR.

Stalin's immediate list would be - defeat Finland, annex the Straights and force Turkey into an alliance with Moscow, advance Soviet influence into the Balkans and Persian Gulf and Middle East while dividing Japan from Germany for the option of war in the Far East.

my scenario was for Germany and Italy to divide themselves from Japan. for economic reasons (China was always the better trading partner) and to leave Soviets free to invade Manchuria.

(since Japan is isolated geographically and politically)
 
Mid-1940?
Axis victory.
An estimated 3+ million German troops were in the Eastern Front at the start of Operation Barbarossa. This meant that the majority of the German troops were fighting the Russians specifically by the end of the war. Take the Eastern Front away from the Germans, and the Axis would have one of the strongest land armies ever known. No part of Allied Europe would have been able to stop such a force, and Eurasia would be impenetrable from the Western Front.

The Axis now has:

  • a much stronger army

  • better and more artillery

  • more resources

  • a country on its side with previous experience of allying with members of the Allied Powers
The Soviets could teach Germany the most modern methods of mass production learned from the US, offering huge quantities of raw resources and food, granting access to the world’s most expansive intelligence operations. Meanwhile, Germany could offer advanced technologies and military expertise. During the actual war, one advantage that Britain had over Germany was a great deal of colonies to pull resources from, while Germany was starved of them. Assuming the Soviet Union joined the Axis, that advantage wouldn’t exist anymore for Britain for two reasons:

  • The Soviet Union has a good deal of resources it could feed Germany in this scenario. Germany would have much more oil and grain, and that would have allowed for it to wage war much more effectively.
  • The Soviet Union would be powerful enough to be able to effectively take over British colonies and grab resources from them, as well as help Italy and Germany do the same.
Britain’s position in the Middle-East would have been gone in no time. The Soviets would take Persia, Iraq, and the rest of the Middle-East up to the Suez (no more oil shortage for the Axis from that point on-wards). The British would be forced to pull out of Egypt and Greece due to the closing of the Suez canal. Italy would also be able to occupy Egypt and link up with Italian troops in Ethiopia that are already there. The U.K. would surrender after Spain gives Axis transit rights to Spanish-Morocco and Allies lose possession of both its Middle-East and North African possessions. By this point, Germany would very heavily increase U-Boat production and research of missiles.

If not that, the Soviets and Nazis would be fighting the British troops in Africa or Western Europe, and the sheer manpower from the Axis army would have crushed them (literally and figuratively) either way. The Allied Invasion of Sicily would also have been much harder to achieve with actual success. With that front gone too, the Western Front could not have been opened because of the number of enemies surrounding them as a result of Germany not fighting a two-front war.

By this point, Britain would be colonised, and the rest of Mainland Europe would be split between the Axis Powers. Central Asia would become primarily Soviet territory. Japan would have successfully taken East China, and Southeast Asia up to Oceania, where Australia and New Zealand would eventually be Japanese colonies too.

Either way, the only real way the Allies could have won would be if America joined the war, developed the atomic bomb first and used it on a major Russian or German city.
 
Last edited:
The Axis and Soviets together are a Mackinderian nightmare for the Allies, basically the British Empire, to face,
 

Deleted member 1487

The Soviets could teach Germany the most modern methods of mass production learned from the US
AFAIK the Soviets knew nothing about those methods that the Germans themselves didn't know, the difference is the Soviets either bought factories from the US wholesale for their own production or built up huge facilities deep in their hinterland (or what they thought would be deep enough) in the 1920s-30s to produce huge volumes of relatively uncomplex equipment. German pre-Nazi industry was built on small scale production that could convert to service global demands quickly, rather than US style mass manufacturing that they couldn't compete against in the global markets, especially during the tariff wars of the 1920s-30s. The Soviets didn't need to worry about competition because they were industrializing to service their own needs. The Germans then had to try and build a mass manufacturing system from near scratch after the demilitarization of industry in the 1920s and industrial slump of the late 1920s-early 1930s.
 
My first thought was, "well, Berlin gets nuked," but if it the wallies can't do an invasion of France, would they be able to penetrate German airspace that deeply?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top