If Germany wins WWI after the communists have taken control in Russia, what would happen to the USSR in the long run? Would Germany be favorable to the New government that they helped create? or would the USSR be killed early on?
USSR if Germany Wins WWI
- Thread starter Mister Abbadon
- Start date
in 1917/1918 the soviets have anything but taken control of russia.
there's enough romanovs alive to force a new dynasty. white victory, heavily supported by german surplus equipment, advisors and anti communist volunteer troops.
there's enough romanovs alive to force a new dynasty. white victory, heavily supported by german surplus equipment, advisors and anti communist volunteer troops.
The Germans would never tolerate a Soviet Union. They would've rather had a revanchist Czarist Russia than a Soviet one, as any communist entity would try to create Bolshevik uprisings in the Germany's hard-earned Mitteleuropa. No, when the war was over, they would help the White Russian forces defeat the communists and place a new, German-advised Czar on the throne. Ergo: a semi-consitiutional czarist regime with a German-controled puppet Czar, with a White Russian government.
Besides, with German forces stationed in Mitteleuropa, it shouldn't be too much of a problem defeating the communists.
Besides, with German forces stationed in Mitteleuropa, it shouldn't be too much of a problem defeating the communists.
Zimmerwald1915
Banned
It's interesting that you'd say that, considering that the Central Powers were prepared to recognize and to negotiate peace with Bolshevik Russia at the same time the Allied powers refused to recognize the regime and were preparing to make war against it. The Germans don't particularly care about the government of Russia, as long as it is both far away and too weak to get closer. A long, drawn-out revolution and civil war in Russia that gives the opportunity for the Germans to consolidate a new regime of puppet states in the East is entirely in line with German interests.
That said, with the Germans in control of Eastern Europe and the Germans and Ottomans carving up the Caucasus, there would be no Soviet Union. The Central Asian republics were not carved out of the RSFSR until the twenties and thirties, long after the Treaty of Union was signed. In a TL with no union, there would be no reason to break up the RSFSR.
Anaxagoras
Banned
I agree with those who say that a German victory basically eliminates the possibility of the USSR taking control of Russia.
They might care for the following reasons:
1. A nasty communist Russia will be a rather less pleasant ally for Britain and France, which may hinder attempts at building potential anti-German coalitions in the future.
2. Surely a bunch of socialists can't run a country, therefore a red Russia will be less of a threat in the future. Right?
Controlling the Tsar? How would Germany enforce this control?
IOTL the Entente threw mountains of surplus equipment at anything that didn't resemble a Bolshevik, and the whites still lost. Crushing the reds could well require direct intervention of the German army. It would be easy for Germany to succeed, but more fighting right after an exhausting world war will be extremely unpopular.
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Agreed nothing short of direct German intervention will keep the Bolsheviks from winning the civil war. Now direct intervention isnt difficult to pull off but would the Germans be in a position to do so after the war is over? It really depends on how to Germans win WW1 and if they have enough steam left over to put down discontent in their own country and a revolution in Russia.
Flubber
Banned
And it's interesting that you've no appreciation of just why the Central Powers "negotiated" a peace with Boshie Russia. Peace on the eastern front allowed the CP to shift troops to the western front and try to win the war.
Brest-Litovsk was a peace of CP convenience only. The CP essentially dictated the terms and, when the Bolshies got uppity, was more than willing to start up the war again until the Bolshies crawled back to the "negotiations". Any accommodation with the Bolsheviks was going to be temporary while the CP dealt with more pressing issues like the UK, France, Italy, and the USA.
A Germany which wins WW1 is going to eventually deal with a USSR or whatever Russian state the Bolsheviks able to fashion because such a state is a threat to German satellites in Eastern Europe. And, unlike the OTL Entente powers which fought the Bolsheviks, a victorious Germany isn't going to be too squeamish to finish the job.
If The German Empire had won WW1
Today East Europe would look complete different as in OLT
The Germans had establish several buffer-state under there Control, between them and Russia
Poland, Ukraine, white Russia, Baltic States and create several new ones
Next to that they had support the White and Green Army of the Russia civil war.
While in Siberia warlords taking control over areas
there would be no USSR in this TL
Today East Europe would look complete different as in OLT
The Germans had establish several buffer-state under there Control, between them and Russia
Poland, Ukraine, white Russia, Baltic States and create several new ones
Next to that they had support the White and Green Army of the Russia civil war.
While in Siberia warlords taking control over areas
there would be no USSR in this TL
Will the German people being willing to fight this war now? They've been told that the war with the Russians was over, and now that the three-four year war is over, why would they allow their sons/husbands/male relations go off to war against a nation that was in the middle of a civil war, and little to no chance of surviving in their eyes?
Flubber
Banned
Spoken like a true inhabitant of 21st Century liberal Western democracy.
You can't even imagine how different people in different times under different systems of government thought or acted, can you? Everyone everywhere for all time is just Bob in Accounting, right?
Well, it's not like the French and British originally planned to tolerate the USSR either... I could certainly see a victorious Germany not exactly being ready to fight another war deep into Russia against crazy Bolsheviks, and instead sending only minor support to the Whites as the Entente did IOTL.
Those forces in "Mitteleuropa" will likely be busy holding down the place, setting up new administrations and fighting nationalist partisans, and thus in no shape to go gallivanting off towards Moscow.
If we look at the people of Britain and France after WWI, they weren't all that ready to fight another war. And it took the Germans a good 20 years to be ready to fight another war, and even then they weren't all that enthusiastic about it - no spontaneous demonstrations of support like in 1914.
Because early 20th century Germans were inexhaustible killbots who never would suffer from war-wearyness or revolt against demands for even more sacrifice, right?
(And one wonders how enthusiastic the huge socialist movement in Germany will be about an unprovoked war vs the USSR. How long are we assuming the wartime military dictatorship will continue? They had a parliament and shit, you know)
Bruce
PS- I'm not saying a German invasion of Russia post-war to remove the Reds _can't_ happen, but it's hardly an inevitability either.
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Flubber
Banned
Of course not. A war against whatever this alt-USSR could scrape up wouldn't entail the same level of mobilization WW1 did and such an intervention won't occur immediately after WW1 ends. The blockade is over and a victorious Germany would also be receiving reparations too.
Unprovoked? This alt-USSR will be fucking around with German satellite nations in Eastern Europe because the Bolshies won't be able to help themselves and that will be all the provocation Germany needs.
As for the Reichstag, a constitutional crisis is in the offing - one was brewing before the war after all - but winning a war goes a long way towards buttressing the establishment.
The socialist movement was huge but that didn't mean squat in 1914. It isn't going to mean squat ITTL either as a victorious Germany isn't to see the erosion of morale the OTL Germany saw in 1918 either.
If a USSR is proclaimed ITTL , it isn't going to last much past the mid-20s.
Not very enthusiastically delivered, I imagine.
The German economy will recover - although the continuing costs of holding down so much of Europe will be a drain - but it's hardly going to be roses for a while. And the longer the time passes after WWI, the harder it will be to get people mobilized again.How much meddling in eastern European governments did the Soviets indulge in OTL? The Soviets are in a much worse place than OTL, and their leaders are not idiots. But I suppose the inevitable resistance to German assholery in Eastern Europe will be blamed on the Soviets...
Actually, the Socialist voluntarily avoided raising waves during the war and voted the war budget when they could have brought on a real clash by refusing [1]: they will not be so restrained in a war of agression. And like the "winners" of WWI OTL, Germany will be in poor straits financially after the war, and efforts to extract resources from eastern Europe and France will be messy and rebellion-fraught: it's not like the puppet regimes set up in the east were popular OTL, or that the Germans were very successful in extracting blood from those turnips. Victory will not bring back the dead or fix the wounded, or bring prosperity superior to that before the war, and in those conditions discontent will remain, as it did all over Europe OTL.
Bruce
[1] In any event, Germany seemed in real danger in 1914, so supporting the government was only prudent: 1919, not so much.
Flubber
Banned
Exactly.
Remember, this WW1 ends sooner and - much more importantly - the blockade doesn't last until 1919.
And guess who is going to get blamed? The nation founded by an avowed international revolutionary movement perhaps?
Once again, this war and the blockade ends sooner. Fewer deaths, fewer maimed, less devastation, reparations coming in, puppet states to pillage, and less discontent. Not perfect mind you, but not our 1919 either.