USN vs Kriegsmarine 1950 - what would each navy have?

Let’s wave our hands and say Nazi Victorious TL 59680 happens - the Germans (somehow) conquer the USSR to the Urals and (somehow) force the British to sign at least a temporary peace treaty.

My question (inspired by this post: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...r-won-world-war-2.520092/page-3#post-22526848) is this - if both the USN and the Kriegsmarine had completed their naval construction plans, what would their respective fleets look like in 1950? I looked up the 1940 Naval Act and Plan Z, but what would have been added to those foundations over the course of the mid-late 1940s? (Assuming that both navies (somehow) get everything that they wanted.)
 
By 1950 a victorious Nazi Germany would have a tiny navy, centred around the graf zepplin carrier and whatever major surface ships survived the war. In contrast the USN would be massive, likely at close to 1945 strength for modern ships.

Building a fleet is a peace time task that takes decades, the USN was big in 1916 when the Naval act authorised it to be bigger again and it was from this bigger base that the 1940 expansion was built on.
 
This was the US Navy's fleet plan in 1941:

http://www.alternatewars.com/WW2/VictoryPlan/Navy_Requirements.htm
Type

Built

Bullding

Additional Required

Total

BB​

15​

17​

0​

32​

CV​

6​

12​

6​

24​

CB​

0​

6​

4​

10​

CA​

18​

8​

0​

26​

CL​

19​

40​

16​

75​

DD​

170​

194​

80​

444​

SS​

112​

72​

54​

258​

Auxilaries, Large​

183​

95​

100​

378​

Naval Coastal Frontier Forces​

236​

493​

600​

1,329​

Naval District Utility Craft​

491​

102​

500​

1,095​

This would be broken down as
- BB: Arkansas, 2 New York, 12 Standard, 2 North Carolina, 4 South Dakota, 6 Iowa, 5 Montana
- CV: 7 prewar carriers, 17 Essex-class
- CB: 6 Alaska, 4 Super-Alaska
- CA: 18 prewar cruisers, 8 Baltimores
- CL: 10 Omaha, 9 Brooklyn, 4 Atlanta, 52 Cleveland

Obviously, by actual 1946 the plan had changed I'm trying to refind the information on that.
 
Have to ask, what would a Super-Alaska look like?
Probably like this:

s511-06.jpg
 
Okay, for the 1945 breakdown, taken from page 37 onward of this document:

25 BB: 13 prewar, 2 NC, 4 SD, 6 Iowa
3 CB: 3 Alaska
43 CV: 3 prewar, 35 Essex, 5 Midway
10 CVL: 8 Independence, 2 Saipan
48 CA: 12 prewar, 24 Baltimore, 12 Des Moines
59 CL: 18 prewar, 28 Cleveland, 13 Fargo, 4 Worcester
15 CLAA: 9 Atlanta, 6 CL-154
540 DD
320 SS

Not that this takes into account wartime losses, and also that some of these ships were subsequently sunk or crippled - Pennsylvania and Indianapolis come to mind.
 
Either way this blows Plan Z out of the water, particularly in the mass of carriers.

Total23082
TypeProjectedCompleted
Battleships104
Battlecruisers30
Aircraft carriers40
Panzerschiffe153
Heavy cruisers53
Light cruisers136
Scout cruisers220
Destroyers6830
Torpedo boats9036
German changes aren't nearly so well document as American, but we can safely assume that a lot more destroyers are going to be added to Plan Z as it goes along.
 
We also have to account for the fact that the USN would probably have retired most if not all the Standards and older stuff like the 4 Pipers and Omahas and the S class subs and built a Montana follow on and possibly a Midway successor by 1950 if their wasn't a war on. Honestly probably makes it a worse stomp given they'd have more modern and powerful replacements if probably less in numbers as compared to the hulls they replaced
 
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How abut something like this?

The Third Battle of the Azores was a fiercely fought naval action June 27-30, 1950, between the US Navy and the Kriegsmarine.

Convoy H-135, was transporting a US Navy Construction battalion, equipment and materials to expand and add a second runway at Lejas Field, the US Army Air Force base on Terceira Island, in the Azores, in order to enable the base to operate B-29s and act as an emergency airfield for damaged returning B-36 Peacemakers. The convoy consisted of 7 fast transports and a tanker. The escort was comprised of the Gearing Class destroyers Gyatt, Hamner, Fiske, and Dyess, The Allan M Sumner class destroyers Ingraham and Waldron, and the Cleveland class cruiser Little Rock.

A Luftwaffe Heinkel 177 maritime patrol aircraft operating from Tenerife spotted the convoy at dawn June 27, and over the next 24 hours the convoy was attacked by 11 U-boats in three waves, including 2 of the Type XXIII Electroboots that had been responsible for the brief “third happy time” in 1946. Five of the U-boats were sunk by US B-24 and Martin Mariner aircraft, 2 were sunk by the escorts, and 2 were sunk by the US Navy hunter-killer group built around the escort carriers Sangamon and Santee, that were 200 nautical miles south of the convoy. U-1241 managed to hit Little Rock and the freighter Bluefield Victory with a torpedo each, before the submarine was driven deep and damaged. Little Rock, shipping 2000 tons of water and only able to make 12 knots, turned back, escorted by Gyatt, and Fiske. Bluefield Victory was slowed to 8 knots and dropped behind the convoy, escorted by Waldron.

The Kriegsmarine now put into motion a daring gambit. The Panzerschiffes Lützow and Scheer, with the destroyers Z 51, Guépard and Valmy, leaving their base in Oran, approached from the south east, while Tirpitz, Prinz Eugen and the destroyers Z53, Z58, Z61, and Antonio Pigafetta, 2 days out from Brest, approached the convoy from the north, hoping the catch the Americans in a pincer movement.

The US Navy Cryptologic Intelligence department had cracked the 7-wheel Enigma machine in May, and were aware of the Kriegsmarine movements. The convoy’s distant cover force, with the Essex class carrier Valley Forge, the battleship Illinois, cruisers Alaska, Puerto Rico, Biloxi, Topeka, and 9 destroyers approached from the east. Task Force 19 had been detached from covering the amphibious landing at Dakar, Operation Stopwatch, and approached from the south, creating a pincer around the German pincer. Task Force 19 under Admiral Arleigh Burke consisted of the Essex class carriers Hancock, Boxer, Lexington, and Leyte, the battleships Kentucky, New Jersey, and Wisconsin, the cruisers Baltimore, Saint Paul, Bremerton, Denver, Santa Fe, Birmingham, and Pasedena, and 19 destroyers.

Admiral Hans-Erich Voss on Lützow had intended to attack the convoy at night, but a change in the convoy’s course meant his Arado floatplane came in radar contact at dawn of the 29th. He knew that with their newest radar, the Americans experienced little difference between their daylight and night gunnery, and so he charged in, informed by his U-boat reconnaissance that the convoy now had only 3 destroyers as escort.

The first strike package from Valley Forge also arrived at dawn, bringing 23 TBF Avenger torpedo bombers and 32 SB2C Helldiver dive bombers, escorted by 18 F2G Super Corsair Fighters. Lützow was hit twice by 1000lb bombs, flooding one of her boiler rooms and putting her after turret out of action. Scheer was hit by a bomb and 2 torpedoes, bringing her to a standstill. Guépard was also hit by a torpedo and broke in half. The German destroyers suffered heavy losses to their anti-aircraft gunners from strafing by American fighters. 8 US Navy aircraft were shot down by anti-aircraft fire.

Sheer had her survivors rescued by the two remaining destroyers, and was scuttled by torpedoes from Z 51, and Voss turned back east, hoping to make for the shelter of coastal air cover. Admiral Reinicke, on Tirpitz, smelled a trap and turned back north, knowing it would earn him a sacking and a tirade from the senescent Fuhrer, but preferred to save his ships and crews. Tirpitz’s air search radar warned him at noon that an American air strike was on its way. A Ju488 maritime patrol plane flew overhead, but Reinicke was a whole day out of range of land-based fighter cover.

Valley Forge’s afternoon strike hit Tirpitz with 3 torpedoes and one bomb, but the battleship managed to continue at 27 knots, with the rest of her escorts undamaged. The strike from TF 19 arrived at 1600 hours, with 110 torpedo bombers, 140 dive bombers, and 120 fighters. Prinz Eugen was left sinking, Tirpitz was struck by 2 more torpedoes and 6 bombs, reducing her to a speed of 9 knots. The destroyers Z53 was sunk by two bombs. Z61 had her stern blown off by a torpedo but was still afloat, and was taken in tow by Antonio Pigafetta, leaving Z58 as the only maneuvering destroyer. 6 US Navy planes fell to anti-aircraft fire.

The next day heavy cloud and rain hampered aircraft operations. US radar equipped Avenger carrier planes and maritime patrol planes from the Azores searched for the Kriegsmarine survivors, and German long-range maritime strike aircraft attempted to find the Americans. At 2100 hours on the 29th, USS Alaska and Puerto Rico located Lützow, and engaged in a long range radar directed gun-battle that left Lützow a burning wreck. Lützow managed to hit Alaska on her stern, setting her float planes on fire, and once below the water line, causing serious flooding.

The dawn of June 30th came, again cloudy and wet. Tirpitz had managed to limp within range of shore-based strike aircraft, but visibility was patchy. The Luftwaffe Ju-288s appeared through the day, and some drove home attacks on the approaching trio of Burke’s battleships, but fell to the Super Corsairs and F9F Panthers of the CAP. New Jersey was the first to get within range of Tirpitz, and when her 16” super-heavy shells began falling around the German Battleship, Reinicke ordered the destroyers Z 58 and Antonio Pigafetta to flee, sent a final radio message and turned to fight. Tirpitz hit Wisconsin three times before her gunnery fell off with turrets under local control. The German battleship managed to absorb an incredible amount of damage from her three Iowa class foes, being hit over a hundred times before her last gun was silenced.

The destroyer USS Harlan Dickenson applied the coup de grace, hitting Tirpitz with 10 torpedoes at close range.

Convoy H-135 arrived at the Azores one day later.
 
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A Luftwaffe Heinkel 177 maritime patrol aircraft operating from Tenerife spotted the convoy at dawn June 27, and over the next 24 hours the convoy was attacked by 11 U-boats in three waves, including 2 of the Type XXIII Electroboots that had been responsible for the brief “third happy time” in 1946.

Minor point : the Type XXIII was a small coastal boat with only 2 torpedoes and a top speed of about 10kts.
It didn't have the range, speed or armament to attack a convoy in the middle of the Atlantic.
 
I would imagine that by 1950 USN Cruisers would no longer be carrying aircraft as they had proven to be a serious fire risk during multiple SAG clashes with the IJN and with an embarrassing number of carriers and radar no longer required.

Also with 600 pound Torpex warheads 3 Airdropped fish would have caused serious damage to Tirpitz being the equivalent of 900 pounds of TNT
 
I know the Bismarcks have a reputation for being tough ships but 100 x 16-inch super-heavy shells would be beyond overkill and would be able to punch through her armour at any range pretty much. Remember that the Bis' were tough to sink but very easy to cripple, and i'm not talking about the torpedo hit on the rudder, but rather that their armour deck was low down and left a lot of communication and electrical systems exposed above that. And once shells start poking around inside, they will be (and indeed were) knocked out quickly.

And I will point out that basically the battle against the Bismarck was decided within 15 minutes by that absolute monster of a hit forwards from Rodney that disabled/jammed both forward turrets, possibly hit the bridge and severed communication from the main gunnery director to the aft turrets (the main director was shortly thereafter hit by a 8-inch round from HMS Norfolk).

USN 16-inch super-heavies will do horrific things to the Tirpitz, and wouldn't need 100 shells.
 
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Also with 600 pound Torpex warheads 3 Airdropped fish would have caused serious damage to Tirpitz being the equivalent of 900 pounds of TNT

I would have figured that 5 torpedoes would be more than a little inconvenient to a Bismarck class myself. Still, a ripping good yarn.

USN 16-inch super-heavies will do horrific things to the Tirpitz, and wouldn't need 100 shells.

I presume the majority rearranged the wreckage on deck.
 
They'd be tearing through the deck, if they sit back and use their gunnery radar to drop shells on the ship, those rounds will happily go through the main armoured deck. And if they come close they can also punch through the belt. You're talking about a 2,700 lb shell here, if thats coming down on you there's nothing that will stop that, not even the Yamato's main deck.

The pen charts for a mk8 Super-heavy shell fired by a 50cal 16-inch gun.

Range Side armour Deck armour Striking velocity Angle of fall
20,000 yards (18,288 m)20.04" (509 mm)3.90" (99 mm)1,740 fps (530 mps)14.9
25,000 yards (22,860 m)17.36" (441 mm)5.17" (131 mm)1,632 fps (497 mps)21.1
30,000 yards (27,432 m)14.97" (380 mm)6.65" (169 mm)1,567 fps (478 mps)28.25
35,000 yards (32,004 m)12.97" (329 mm)8.48" (215 mm)1,556 fps (474 mps)36.27

 
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They'd be tearing through the deck, if they sit back and use their gunnery radar to drop shells on the ship, those rounds will happily go through the main armoured deck. And if they come close they can also punch through the belt. You're talking about a 2,700 lb shell here, if thats coming down on you there's nothing that will stop that, not even the Yamato's main deck.

Oh absolutely, I just assume after the turrets were dismembered, they probably made the same mistake Rodney made: getting too close. Since the story doesn't say, I suppose it's my head filling it in.
 
Oh absolutely, I just assume after the turrets were dismembered, they probably made the same mistake Rodney made: getting too close. Since the story doesn't say, I suppose it's my head filling it in.

Aye stands to reason, but USN doctrine and training did place a lot of focus on long range gunnery for their battleships, they've got the range and radar advantage and they'd use it as per their training. Especially if Admiral 'Ching' Lee has anything to say about it. Its your story, ya can have them close in it does make it more dramatic than the Tirpitz rather futiely blasting away at flashes on the horizon whilst radar guided shells fall all around her.
 
I am sure it would be one sided but not that one sided.

By 1950 the KM would likely have 2 or 3 H class ships, radar gunnery themselves, better subs than a XXI and giving their advantage in rocketry one might see anti ship missiles fired from ships, maybe even from planes.
 

thaddeus

Donor
the KM would be a u-boat-centric navy under almost any scenario? all the Plan Z ships were cancelled immediately after the war began? for there to be much of a surface fleet they would have to be retained in Norway (as the Tirpitz was) somewhat earlier.

so four 1930's design BBs, possibly half dozen cruisers and a couple of lackluster carriers? just IMO what they would build post-war would be diesel DDs based on their wartime experience, capable of Atlantic operations and probably TBs around their 1944 design.
 
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A naval war in 1950 would be so different then WWII, it's hard to say just what we'd see. Jet aircraft would be dominating carrier aviation, with almost all the WWII types retired. Only fast battleships would be around. Submarine technology, and tactics would be way in advance of WWII. The Germans will have made great strides in submarines, and radar, but still wouldn't be able to match the Anglo/American fleet in a surface action. Cruise missiles will be arriving on the scene, changing the nature of a surface action. Aircraft will have more standoff weapons to attack well defended ships. 1950 was a transitional point where a lot was changing.
 
I don't see much difference as the USN of post-1945 especially against the KM. To my knowledge, most of the Reich's military was invested in the ground forces (Heer) and the air force (Luftwaffe) as Germany was not an empire unlike Britain and France. Germany no longer has overseas possessions at this period.

One thing I would think too is the if Germany tries to build a blue-water navy, it's economy would collapse. Just as with most "Germany builds more X" scenarios, it always ends with a strain on their resources.
How abut something like this?

The Third Battle of the Azores was a fiercely fought naval action June 27-30, 1950, between the US Navy and the Kriegsmarine.
[SNIP]

The destroyer USS Harlan Dickenson applied the coup de grace, hitting Tirpitz with 10 torpedoes at close range.

Convoy H-135 arrived at the Azores one day later.
Nice scenario. It's believable. One question though, so the U.S. Army Air Forces never become the U.S. Air Force in this scenario?
 
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