USN Adopts Royal Navy Naming Conventions

Delta Force

Banned
How could the USN end up with a more Royal Navy inspired naming convention? In other words, ships names inspired by qualities (Valiant, Vanguard, Invincible) and mythology (Apollo, Cerberus, and Spartan) as opposed to poetic names for the United States, presidents, states, territories, cities, marine life, and people associated with the Navy.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
You mean like:

Constitution, Constellation, Independence, Intrepid, Enterprise, Reprisal, Boxer, etc?

The point of the various nomenclature systems in the USN (the 1820-60 version and the 1880-1950 version) is that a ship's type can be told (almost) immediately by its name.

The 1820-60 version reserved state names for ships-of-the-line, major rivers for frigates (sail and steam), cities for first class sloops-of-war (sail and steam), etc. It broke down with the vast expansion of the Civil War navy and the introduction of new types (coastal and riverine ironclads) that did not fit neatly into the existing ship types;

The 1880-1950 version reserved state names for battleships, cities for cruisers, naval heroes for destroyers types, etc; marine animals was an inspired choice for submarines and battles and warships from US history equally so for aircraft carriers.

The post-1950 politicization of the naming system is bad policy, for all sorts of reasons, notably for the people paying the bills and crew morale, in my always and humble opinion.

Best,
 

Thande

Donor
These things can happen quite easily by accident. A lot of "traditional" Royal Navy ship names are the names of captured French ships that happened never to be changed for whatever reason, such as Redoubtable and Temeraire. Get the USN into a conflict with the right nation at the right time and anything could happen to its naming conventions.

Interestingly, some of the names of the earliest Continental Navy ships--by coincidence or deliberately so--evoke those used by the Republican Navy under Cromwell over a century earlier.
 
In fact the Royal Navy conventions were in many cases quite similar to other naval powers like France Naples and Venice with overlap with the Dutch. Dutch and English ones were borrowed by the Russians too. It was a common culture almost.

Russians kept Swedish names in their roster just like the British kept French ones (from captured ships).
 
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TFSmith121

Banned
The US did commission a Java, a Guerriere, and even a Serapis

The US did commission a Java, a Guerriere, and even a Serapis after the various captures.

Best,
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Russians kept Swedish names in their roster just like the British kept French ones (from captured ships).

You want to talk about irony in terms of ship names? The Confederacy had a ship called the CSS United States.
 

Thande

Donor
You want to talk about irony in terms of ship names? The Confederacy had a ship called the CSS United States.

That is pretty good :D At least all the ships named after Roundhead victories in the Civil War got renamed after the Restoration here.

Of course the Royal Navy (and other navies, as RGB says) also had something of a tradition of having ships named more vaguely for lands without any implied political connotation, as in HMS Africa and so on.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Of course the Royal Navy (and other navies, as RGB says) also had something of a tradition of having ships named more vaguely for lands without any implied political connotation, as in HMS Africa and so on.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't there battlecruisers named after the Dominion or Crown Colony that paid for them (i.e. HMS Malaya and such).
 

TFSmith121

Banned
HMAS Australia, HMS New Zealand, and HMS Malaya

HMAS Australia, HMS New Zealand, and HMS Malaya were paid for by their namesakes; HMS Canada and HMS Erin were "honors" for said nations' contributions to the war, as was the putative HMS India, which became the aircraft carrier HMS Eagle.

The RAN's cruisers (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane) were paid for by Australia; the New Zealand government contributed to the costs of the pre-war New Zealand division of the RN, which probably influenced the name of HMS Dunedin; a number of other "imperial" cities (Delhi, Cairo, Capetown) all were honored with cruisers in during WW I, and there had been similar decisions earlier (HMS Good Hope and HMS Natal), for example.

The pre-war predreadnoughts had included an HMS Hindustan and an HMS Hibernia (but not Cambria or Caledonia, interestingly enough).

Best,
 
The USN did reuse 'Cyane' from the RN after the original captured one was put to rest. A lovely name IMO.

I miss the old ship name classifications.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The USN also had a second USS Macedonian

The USN also had a second USS Macedonian...

I think there were a couple of other "small ships" capture names re-used as well, between the 1812-15 war and the steam navy, besides Cyane.

And yes, I agree, the 1880-1950 system was well done.

Best,
 
How many navies reused the names of ships that an enemy captured? I wouldn't be surprised if it's less common than a navy reusing the names of ships that they captured themselves. I note for instance that the USN seems not to have reused USS President after that frigate was captured by the RN.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Lots of USS Presidents after the frigate;

of course they were:

President Adams;
President Grant;
President Hayes;
etc.

DANFS lists two USS Presidents, both in the first two decades of the Nineteenth Century - after that, none.

However, there were two USS Chesapeake(s) after the 1813 loss of the original one of the "six frigates" to Shannon, so I don't think your idea was really an issue.

Best,
 
Interesting. I hadn't thought of the Chesapeake. Obviously that name was reused due to the history of the Shannon-Chesapeake duel. I wonder if there was something seen as inglorious about the capture of the President causing that particular name to never be used after the War of 1812.

Probably that's the decisive factor. If there's something that is seen as deserving commemorating then a ship's name will be reused (as long as there are enough ships, anyway). If something is seen as shameful then the name won't be reused unless it is somehow redeemed first.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
There hasn't been a USS Congress for awhile. The people would probably storm the shipyard and set the ship on fire.

I always thought it was a bit funny that Churchill wanted a dreadnought named HMS Oliver Cromwell and King George V kept telling him no. IIRC, the King eventually had to tell Churchill to shut up and stop bringing the idea up.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
I don't think anything was seen as shameful

Interesting. I hadn't thought of the Chesapeake. Obviously that name was reused due to the history of the Shannon-Chesapeake duel. I wonder if there was something seen as inglorious about the capture of the President causing that particular name to never be used after the War of 1812.

Flukes, and politics, as much as anything else. There have been six Congress, one as late as 1919.

I'd expect in a 1940s where the 5-Ocean-Bill went through but the Axis didn't attack/declare war on the US, there would have been a lot of the "old Navy" names would have been resurrected, for the Essex and (well, not-Midway) class fleet carriers that didn't get the names of WW II battles or ships lost in the course of the war (Lexington, Yorktown, Wasp, Hornet, Princeton, for example).

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Except that the British did name a WW II warship after Cromwell

I always thought it was a bit funny that Churchill wanted a dreadnought named HMS Oliver Cromwell and King George V kept telling him no. IIRC, the King eventually had to tell Churchill to shut up and stop bringing the idea up.


Except that the British did name a WW II warship after Cromwell, one of the 40 late war Z/C class destroyers.

Which suggest some of the limits of British practices:

Zephyr and Zealous, okay; but Zebra and Zambesi?

There are some winners in the C classes, as well:

Caprice?

"Um, I dunno, should we shell that enemy ship, or that other one?"

Cassandra?

"Naw, I don't what believe what Cassandra's lookouts are reporting..."

Charity?

"Okay, you're out of ammunition - we'll give you some, so it's a fair fight."

Chequers?

Really? The PM's country house? Or the children's game?

Crescent?

Maybe for the Royal Malaysian Navy...

Crystal?

Whatever you do, don't hit it with a hammer...

At least Cromwell was named after a sucessful English general...

Best,
 
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