USA joins Axis

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Either Democrat Alex Palmer (the man responsible for the First Red Scare) or Palmer-tactics supporting Republican Leonard Wood become the President of the United States in 1920. Prince Hirohito falls off his horse and dies in 1924, causing the English-speaking pro-British next in line prince to succeed Taisho in 1926 as Emperor of Japan, strengthening the Anglo-Japanese alliance.

The ATL equivalent of the Great Depression, whether earlier or later, coincides with the continued or renewed popularity of William Hope "Coin" Harvey, the populist economic theorist whose "Coin's Financial School" blamed the gold standard and specifically British financial imperialism for the economic woes of America and the rest of the world.

Germany can stay just as nasty as OTL, though probably in an at least slightly different way.

France needs to be not so far gone that it won't be part of an Allies that still includes the USSR.

Keeping Stalin or someone else capable of allying with capitalist powers against German ultra-militarism would be important, so no Trotsky.


Honestly by 1920 you should be able to keep the general trajectory of social change in Intewar Europe, while altering things for the UK in terms of foreign policy and the US in terms of domestic politics. There has to be many ways to make the US nastier, but really the real-politick of a stronger Anglo-Japanese Alliance, one that lasts, could be perhaps the most important element and maybe simply strengthening that angle (and boy would it take more than just a different Emperor) would be more elegant than having that just be a butterfly of another POD like the US becoming a nastier place.
 

JRScott

Banned
Congress actually voted on 3 separate occasions to join the Axis. All of those votes failed in Congress.

The key though is FDR can't be president. Perhaps his illness kills him during his 2nd term rather than his first. Perhaps he losses the election. In any event FDR wants to bring the US to the Allies side, and thus his presence would prevent the US joining the Axis (he'd just veto if it passed Congress).

Hitler would then probably cut a deal, giving the USA rights to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean in exchange for their non involvement in the Europe war. Depending on who is president this could work. Britain facing the grueling punishment in Europe would be hard pressed to help defend Canada at the same time. In addition since in this scenario the US does not provide forces to defend Canada, there are a lot less Canadians to assist Britain.

Since the US joins the Axis then it would be an ally of Japan, Japan recognizing the same rights to North America, the Caribbean and the present US holdings int he Pacific in exchange for fuel and bombs to press their attacks against China and USSR. No surprise attack at Pearl Harbor.

Then 5th Column elements in the US would serve to rally the people behind the invasions of Mexico and Canada. Mexico would be the easier nut to crack at this time. You'd be amazed how just a few people can get the many to do what they want.

If the US joined the Axis, I think Spain would have as well, Gibraltar falls. Without the Lend-Lease program Britain, Greece, Turkey, Russia simply can't survive.

Germany at the end of the war controls europe, western asia, middle east and africa. Japan controls east asia, southeast asia, and the islands of the pacific not controlled by the USA, USA controls its pacific islands, and the North American Continent. South America would probably unite and seek trade relations with the other 3 main powers. The next war will break out when Germany and Japan go to war in probably a decade after the end of WWII. US would probably supply both sides with weapons but mostly sit out ensuring its own defense.
 
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Congress actually voted on 3 separate occasions to join the Axis. All of those votes failed in Congress.

The key though is FDR can't be president. Perhaps his illness kills him during his 2nd term rather than his first. Perhaps he losses the election. In any event FDR wants to bring the US to the Allies side, and thus his presence would prevent the US joining the Axis (he'd just veto if it passed Congress).

Hitler would then probably cut a deal, giving the USA rights to Canada, Mexico and the Caribbean in exchange for their non involvement in the Europe war. Depending on who is president this could work. Britain facing the grueling punishment in Europe would be hard pressed to help defend Canada at the same time. In addition since in this scenario the US does not provide forces to defend Canada, there are a lot less Canadians to assist Britain.

Since the US joins the Axis then it would be an ally of Japan, Japan recognizing the same rights to North America, the Caribbean and the present US holdings int he Pacific in exchange for fuel and bombs to press their attacks against China and USSR. No surprise attack at Pearl Harbor.

Then 5th Column elements in the US would serve to rally the people behind the invasions of Mexico and Canada. Mexico would be the easier nut to crack at this time. You'd be amazed how just a few people can get the many to do what they want.

If the US joined the Axis, I think Spain would have as well, Gibraltar falls. Without the Lend-Lease program Britain, Greece, Turkey, Russia simply can't survive.

Germany at the end of the war controls europe, western asia, middle east and africa. Japan controls east asia, southeast asia, and the islands of the pacific not controlled by the USA, USA controls its pacific islands, and the North American Continent. South America would probably unite and seek trade relations with the other 3 main powers. The next war will break out when Germany and Japan go to war in probably a decade after the end of WWII. US would probably supply both sides with weapons but mostly sit out ensuring its own defense.
I would have to see where and when these votes in Congress took place. As for offering Mexico and Canada to the United States... It is like if the British offered Slovakia to the Germans before their invasion of Poland. It is in their orbit, they control a fair bit of the economy, has cut off the good bits, and believe it is filled with too many inferior people and bad land to bother annexing.
 

JRScott

Banned
I would have to see where and when these votes in Congress took place. As for offering Mexico and Canada to the United States... It is like if the British offered Slovakia to the Germans before their invasion of Poland. It is in their orbit, they control a fair bit of the economy, has cut off the good bits, and believe it is filled with too many inferior people and bad land to bother annexing.

If I remember correctly they were competing bills against the Neutrality acts in the mid 30s. I don't remember for sure if they ever even made it out of committee all three times. (There were also bills to join the Allies at the same time).
 

edtorockio

Banned
Ohh common. It would have been EASY for America to have joined the Axis.

1. Pod where Britain formally recognized the CSA and gave more direct support creating bad blood.

2. The assassination on Lincoln fails. Following the war Lincoln's plan to "assist" the "Negro" with relocating back to Africa is given support in Congress and helps to ease the unemployment rate in the South. With fewer uneducated people seeking work, there was more work available for whites.... Or so was the argument.

3. Instead of the British retreating from Mexico following the Civil War, have the French withdraw instead creating a precedent for future involvement in Central America

4. Liberia is prospering, under the thumb of American business men who yoke the labor of the newly freed slaves to mine resources etc... Although not mandatory, African Americans are "encouraged" to sell their homes and businesses and resettle in the "bounty" that is Liberia. Any AA who is convicted of a crime in the South is immediately deported to Liberia. Although not as rampant as in the South, Northern states give only as much protection after the war as they did before the war.

5. Britain aids the Spanish during the Spanish American war and provides them with obsolete ships in exchange for Puerto Rico or something similar. While the US is dealing with Spain, Britain establishes close trade relations with countries in South and Central America and secures the right to build a canal and military bases.

6. Around 1900ish, American business in West Africa starts to come into direct confrontation with British and French interests. The white Liberians begin using the blacks as conscripted soldiers and attempt to expand their territory. Although War is averted with a treaty recognizing spheres of influence between the British and American groups it is an uneasy peace.

7. The Great War, due to America having nothing to gain from helping either side and not shipping materials to the British, the Germans never attack American shipping. America stays out of the war and uses the war to try to gain more influence in China and Africa. Not sure when the Europeans piece-meal rule of China ended, but lets say it does so because of American involvement at this time. The war eventually ends in 1919 under similar conditions, Germany is just to exhausted to continue the war alone. Germany is made to sign a humiliating treaty yadda yadda yadda.

8. Great Depression. FDR never rises to prominence having died from Polio (or another Polio like illness - apparently there is some debate in the medical field about his illness). Instead a series of weak leaders and a stagnate economy lead America to seek a Hero for President, Charles Lindbergh. Lindbergh would serve 4 terms in office and embarked on a quest early on to show American ingenuity and might by financing projects to project American Air and Naval power.

9. Japan begins threatening American business in China when it invades Manchuria. America begins selling arms and munitions with money it "lends" to China to fight the Japanese and the Reds.

10. Japan and Britain, two island Monarchies on opposite sides of the world pledge to aid each other if either is attacked by the Americans. Germany follows largely the same path as in OTL as does Italy.

Stage is set for WW2 with America just needing a small push to join the Germans and Italians against


I didnt spend hours thinking this up, so this I would consider version 0.001 draft of a basic outline for America to be in a position to join with Germany. Due to the forced deportation of many African Americans I probably need to go back and add something about race riots, harsh curfews imposed on AAs, an unrestrained KKK... etc... this would potentially make America a kindred spirit. Remember more than HALF of Germany was not Nazi, America can become a fascist racist state with less than HALF hating blacks.

The battle ground for America in WW2 would be Central America, West Africa, and the Pacific. This creates a real problem however because even if Hitler doesnt turn on Russia, Britain is doomed surrounded by German U boats and an American Navy which I would envision based primarily in the Atlantic. Having a "Britain first" strategy, she would quickly be overwhelmed by American industrial might. Then it would be Germany, not Britain and Russia receiving Lend-Lease.

I dont see Germany occupying Britain, France, Poland and Russia are Germany's traditional surviving enemies. Germany would be too focused on Russia to waste troops occupying Britain anyway. This gives America total control of the Atlantic.

As for Japan, if Britain builds the Panama Canal instead of America, I can see them destroying it. Having to spend 6 months to a year fixing it up for use Japan will be well seated in her defense and ready to defend. With the United States having the bomb about the same time as OTL and larger aircraft capable of greater range however, the Japanese empire will be short lived.



Thoughts?
 
ias others said in order to get the us join the axis, the pod has to be far back.

A result would be that the us would likely join the centrals in WW1 with as a result the ww2 of otl would be butterflied.
 
-snip-
Thoughts?
Your POD is too early, butterflies would erase any resemblence to OTL in any but the broadest sense

You have Britain acting contrary to its interests, siding with the US makes more sense then opposing it

You have the Entente winning WWI, when they would be out of money to import raw materials to feed their war machine in 1917
 
how about... Germany and Japan don't bother the west and devote all their time to the conquest of the USSR, which loudly and foolishly declares over and over about how they are going to bury the capitalist pigs in the USA, who feel they have no choice but to join the anti-commie crusade?

Yeah, not likely...
 

edtorockio

Banned
A surviving CSA and the Axis still arrives on schedule? Sure... :rolleyes:



Appreciate the idea of butterflies?


mmm I never said the CSA survives. Maybe i should have stated as such, but if they had I doubt they would have given the US a free hand in the Caribbean or Central America. I figured moving ahead and saying Lincoln survived his assassination attempt would be evidence enough of that... I mean why try to assassinate the president of a country you just defeated....
 

edtorockio

Banned
Your POD is too early, butterflies would erase any resemblence to OTL in any but the broadest sense

You have Britain acting contrary to its interests, siding with the US makes more sense then opposing it

You have the Entente winning WWI, when they would be out of money to import raw materials to feed their war machine in 1917


I think I laid out a clear divergence as to Britain's interests. They are NOT the same as in OTL.
 
I think I laid out a clear divergence as to Britain's interests. They are NOT the same as in OTL.
Britain's interest is to pointlessly antagonize the most powerful country in the hemisphere which by that point has more industry than they do, for some minor territory they don't want and don't need and minor trade concessions when they have what they want already?

Briyains more likely to do what they did with France after Fashoda, clearly define spheres of influence and live and let live, not get into a pissing match with a great power over some not very valuable territory and trade concessions
 
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I'm trying as well.

The Islamic rebellion of 1937, in Xinjiang, happens slightly earlier (before any full-scale war breaks between China and Japan), and leads to a short, local, war, between USSR and Republic of China. The Chinese are forced to relinquish Xinjiang. But, there is a massive international outcry. Soviets leave LoN, while the USA, pressed (among others) by their Chinese and Japanse communities, put sanctions against Moscow.

In Japan, at the time, some in the Army wanted to focus on the Soviet threat rather than China or the Pacific, and/or expand in Eastern Siberia. While Chiang was first and foremest anticommunist, and feared both the CPC and the Soviets. Under German auspices, China and Japan concluded a non-agression pact, which let the Japanese occupy Manchuria to "help to defend" the Chinese sovereignty there.

Few months after, in France, La Cagoule manages to assassinate Marx Dormoy, the Minister of the Interior, who mostly brought it down, by planting a bomb. Unfortunately, children are killed or mutilated by the bomb, causing a national outcry. The NKVD seizes the opportunity, by giving anonymously proof that Italy and Germany were giving weapons to the Cagoule, to attack Spanish Republicans in France, their helpers, German and Italian opponents, and French left personalities. That event, combined to the outcry about Guernica bombing, allows the French Communists (who are in the government) to convince Blum to intervene directly in Spain in 1938.

Still, when Germany wants to take the Sudetes in Chechzslovakia, France and GB accept the Munich "compromise" because the British are really unwilling to go to war, and in France, the Front Populaire broke up, isolating the Communists. French are only in a proxy war against Germans and Italians in Spain, along the Soviets.

In 1939, the Germans convince the Poles to renew the non-agression pact between them, in exchange for annexing Dantzig and building an extraterritorial motorway between it and the German mainland. ATL, the Poles fear the Soviet agression more, because of Xinjiang, and see the French as Soviet-aligned and the British as cowards, so they accept, in fact, German protection.

In Spain, against French army, the Nationalists have to capitulate, and go in exile.
Then, the Battle of Khalkin-Ghol happens between Japanese and Chinese on one side, and Soviets on the other, both sides accusing each other of agression. Under the guise of "retaliation", some IJA officers take upon themselves to attack Soviet territory, pushing the Soviets to declare war on both China and Japan. It's unclear who really attacked first, but a good portion of the American opinion favored Japanese and Chinese.

Red Army, already mobilized, overruns Manchuria. Some atrocities, and the mistreatment of American civilians, push the USA to step up sanctions against the USSR and start lend-lease to Japanese and Chinese.

Four months later, in Europe, Germany (seconded by Poland), thinking the Soviets are too occupied in Asia and the Westerners won't react, presents its ultimatum to Lithuania, asking for Memel, while the Poles ask for the recognition of their possession of Vilnius.

France, emboldened by its success in Spain (which proved her she doesn't need British support to act), and better prepared than OTL (they started to expand the Maginot Line to North, even though it's not yet finished), threatens Germany to declare war if she invades Lithuania. The Soviets, hoping to cause a war between Germany and France, discretly tell the Lithuanians they will, too, support them (they know that the current French government, of Daladier and Reynaud, won't want to appear as Soviet allies, so they act secretly). Germans don't take the French threat too seriously, they are wrong.

When Lithuania refuses the ultimatum, and is invaded by Poland and Germany,
the French declare war to Germany. To the surprise of everyone else, the Soviets, who had a secret defence pact with Lithuania, follow suit, and invade Poland. Italy, seeing France alone, decides to take its chance and declare war on France and USSR. Japan and China declare war on France, in the hope of invading Indochina (which will be rather easy for them).

The Germans, panicking because of the two-front surprise war, decide to take the (short) window of opportunity to strike at France through North, before the Maginot Line is complete, and invade Belgium and Luxembourg for that (not Netherlands). Like in WWI, that act convinces the British to declare war on Germany and Italy. The US put sanctions against Germany for the invasion of Belgium.

The events of 1939 drive a wedge between Americans, and British and French. Even if the US condemned the German actions, they still support Japan and China against the USSR, which they see as the main threat, and suspect France of being too much Soviet-friendly. On top of that, China, in 1940, decided to revoke all inequal treaties and concessions, but signed a trade convention with the US allowing them to keep their shares in Shanghai concession. In exchange, the US supported their decision to revoke concessions.

In 1940, the Germans mostly fight a defensive war against Western Allies and Soviets, respectively in Belgium and at the Polish border. They support the Antonescu putsch in Romania to get more oil, prompting Soviets to declare a "war of liberation" of Romania, while Hungary joins Germany (and grabs Transylvania). Romanians, fearing Soviets more than Germans, mobilize against the USSR. Bulgaria, in exchange for Dobrudja, enters war along Romanians, Hungarians and Germans.

The Western Allies, hoping to cut off Germany from its supplies of iron ore, decide to take control of Narvik and the Swedish mines by surprise. The Germans had a plan to do the same in Norway, but British and French strike first. That operation is a fiasco, pushing Norway, Sweden and Denmark (reluctantly) in the Axis and prompting the USA to apply the same sanctions against London and Paris, it applied on Berlin after the attack of Belgium (because basically, Western Allies did to Norway what Germans did to Belgium), worsening relations between Washington, Paris and London.

The Americans also increase the land-lease to China and Japan, and send the Flying Tigers help China (their true reason is to keep some influence in China, where Germans and Japanese are in a better position). The Germans, who were already ready to attack, intervene to "help" the Scandinavians, and expel the British-French force in months.

The Soviets, fearing now an Axis invasion through Finland, order Finland to cede them Petsamo and the Eastern Karelia, but the Finns refuse, so Soviets attack. The Winter War between all Scandinavians (with German support) and Soviets is a disaster for Soviets. Who made themselves even more unpopular (especially in the US) by committing more atrocities, both in China, and in Poland, where they have to deal with the Armia Krajowa (supported by Nazis and Polish-American sympathizers).

In 1940-1941, the tensions worsen. Soviets, British and French wage a naval war against German and Japanese shipping, and the Axis responds in kind. Irish and American shipping are very often targeted by the Allies, and each time, British and French offer apologies to American government each time, but continue the attacks nonetheless. Soviets don't apologize at all. Though,
Germans target American shipping to Britain as well.

In 1941, something starts a war between the Soviet Union (and possibly France and/or Britain as well) and USA.
 
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