USA joins Axis during WW2

Status
Not open for further replies.

gh79

Banned
How about between WW1 and WW2 USA becomes a champion of decolonization. It frees Philippines and puts pressure on UK and France to free their Asian and African colonies. Japan and Germany declare they are fighting to free the colonies from their Allied Masters. Germany having no colonies loses little from this stand and Japan presents its actions as liberation and economic cooperation rather than colonization. Italy breaks with the Axis and support Britain as it wants to hold on to its colonies in Libya and Ethipia.
In this scenario USA continues to sell oil and steel to Japan. Japan keen to keep up the support is less harsh on the Chinese and British prisoners it takes. US does not aid the Chinese Air Force like in our TL hence removing another Casus Belli with the Japanese. Instead it puts pressure on the British to not send troops over the Burma Road from India to China.

In 1940 France is under German control. The Nazi party has started deporting Jews to Palestine instead of to the camps. The British have started unrestricted submarine warfare and sink Vichy French ships loaded with jewish deportees in the Med. There is outrage in New York. The British are no better than the Nazis. They al have Jewish blood on their hands. Usa lets it be known to Japan that they will not intervene if Japan were to free the Asian colonies of France and Britain. Japan invades but bypasses Philippines which stays neutral. Without American opposition it easily takes New Guinea and invades North Australi. Australia is knocked out of the war and does a Vichy like deal.
Meanwhile after Italy defects to the British side as they are keen to hold on to their colonies in Africa the North Africa campaign does not happen and German troops can focus on the Balkans and Spain (which after a token invasion does a Thailand and joins the Axis)
Britain meanwhile is fighting alone without Lend-Lease which got torpedoed after the Jewish Deportee ships got torpedoed. Roosevelt loses the Democrat Primary and the next Democrat President is more to the left declares that America will not support any country which has colonies. He signs a treaty of Friendship with the Soviet Union with the proviso that if Soviet Union invades any of its neighbors the treaty is off. This frees up Germany and Japan from a fear of a Russian front. Operation Sea Lion goes ahead. its a success but there are huge casualties and Hitler cancels plans for Barbarosa.
At this point the only people still fighting the Axis are the Free French in Africa and the Caribbean. The Portuguese and the Empire of Brazil and the British forces in the Middle East, India and Burma. The British crown has evacuated to Canada and set up a Govt in Exile. The Spanish free govt has set up in Mexico.
The US objects under the Monroe doctrine to the bringing of the war to its backyard.
USA invades Canada and Canada becomes 4 more states. Mexico meanwhile has the Republican Spanish govt in exile and becomes the next target.
USA signs a treaty of friendship with the Axis and invades Mexico, Brazil and and all Caribbean territories. It also invades North Africa to "decolonize". From North Africa it invades and liberates Libya, Egypt, Sudan and Ethiopia in that order which sets it up for the invasion of Yemen and the Hejaz
Meanwhile Germany Takes Portugal and Italy proper.

The British Indian Army rebels motivated by the INA and India goes Independent. It breaks into smaller states fighting but eventually coalesces into 4 states - A Punjabi state which also controls Sindh , Baluchistan, Afghanistan, Kashmir and Western Tibet. A North Indian Hindi Speaking state which has the Nepali Monarchy as its constitutional monarch and controls North India, Central India and Central Tibet. A Southern confederation of states led by the Nizam and Mysore. A Unified Bengal which has control of Assam and Eastern Tibet has well. British Burma holds on to the North Easter states.
The Japanese meanwhile complete the conquest of Indoenseia and do Amphibious landings on New Zealand. Philippines has signed on as a Japanese ally in the Greater Easter Co Propserity Sphere.
China is divided into a hodge podge of local warlords and Japanese and Soviet Sympathizers.
Turkey enters the war on the side of the Germans and the germans make a drive down the middle East and link up with Baghdad and finally finish the Baghdad railway.
The Americans in Egypt invade the Saudi lands to liberate it from superstition and old cultural practices (in reality American oil companies have found from Geological Survey that Arabia may have a lot of Oil.

Here is the world in 1943 - Germany reules all of Europe except Scandinavia. Poland and the Balkans are shared with the Soviets. The Middle East is a new Turkish empire though its the Germans running it. Italy is back in the fold but under the German boot.
North Africa and Middle East from a stretch from Morocco to Dubai is under American Control. Iran is neutral as is Argentina and the Indian states. China is a mess with infighting while the Japanese ruled Asia- Oceania is finally at peace and focussing on rebuilding. (It stretches from Manchuria to New Zealand)
The Free French hold out in Cameroon and the British court moves to South Africa.
The US is now a country with over 70 states stretching from Alaska to Brazil.
Hawaii declares independence with Japanese support and USA decides it cannot really be against colonization while holdign onto a territory which has a Japanese majority population. it agrees to the independence of Hawaii as a buffer state.
 

nbcman

Donor
How do the Germans deport anyone to British controlled Palestine with no ships in the Med - and Vichy French ships weren’t supposed to leave port per the Armistice? Why would Italy be suicidal to switch sides right after entering the War on the German’s side?

How does Japan invade Malaya in 1940 when their nearest base was in Taiwan with zero planning to make an invasion?

Even if Japan could attempt an invasion of Australia, the Australians wouldn’t fold up as you’ve described.

Overall, it is an entirely implausible series of events or a wish fulfillment scenario.
 
But why should the US do that? What's your PoD? Lindbergh POTUS? Smedley Butler's coup?

It makes zero sense, whatever the political leaning of the President of the USA there is no way they want to see the whole of Europe under the control of Nazi Germany, or any single power for that matter. Also the idea that Hitler won't invade the USSR is nonsense. Next to the destruction of the Jews, and deporting them to Palestine was just a way of sticking them in a giant ghetto, the conquest of Lebensraum in the east is the core objective of the Nazi's. Oh and if Germany has control of Poland that's another few million people to be slaughtered or worked to death as slave labour. This is another OP where the Nazi's suddenly stop being Nazi's and somehow achieve even more unbelievable levels of luck than OTL.
 

gh79

Banned
How do the Germans deport anyone to British controlled Palestine with no ships in the Med - and Vichy French ships weren’t supposed to leave port per the Armistice? Why would Italy be suicidal to switch sides right after entering the War on the German’s side?


How does Japan invade Malaya in 1940 when their nearest base was in Taiwan with zero planning to make an invasion?


Even if Japan could attempt an invasion of Australia, the Australians wouldn’t fold up as you’ve described.


Overall, it is an entirely implausible series of events or a wish fulfillment scenario.


The Germans attempt to use Vichy ships and even in OTL Britain did attack the French navy so not so out of the box to think they would attack Vichy ships in the Med in this timeline
The Italians switch sides before the war. In fact they were on the British side in WW1 so they are not really switching just staying on the British side instead of switching to the Germans.

Japan has troops in Vichy Indo-China and Thailand as part of their friendship treaties

Australia's fighting power was off in the Middle East. it had very little to fight an invasion. In OTL the invasion of Australia was stopped by US troops who in this timeline are neutral and not forward deployed to Australia.

I have replied to your objections. let the debate begin.

BTW The Nazi party had massive support in New York with stadium filling rallies so not so unbelievable to think that US would choose the Nazi side especially if Britain has pissed them off with insisting on holding colonies.
 

gh79

Banned
It makes zero sense, whatever the political leaning of the President of the USA there is no way they want to see the whole of Europe under the control of Nazi Germany, or any single power for that matter. Also the idea that Hitler won't invade the USSR is nonsense. Next to the destruction of the Jews, and deporting them to Palestine was just a way of sticking them in a giant ghetto, the conquest of Lebensraum in the east is the core objective of the Nazi's. Oh and if Germany has control of Poland that's another few million people to be slaughtered or worked to death as slave labour. This is another OP where the Nazi's suddenly stop being Nazi's and somehow achieve even more unbelievable levels of luck than OTL.
My POD is in the 1930s the US becomes a champion of anti-colonialism leading to tensions with Colonial powers like UK and France
 
My POD is in the 1930s the US becomes a champion of anti-colonialism leading to tensions with Colonial powers like UK and France
Except it's clear the Axis forces are all about colonialism and aggressive expansion. Germany across Europe, Italy across the Mediterranean, and Japan across Asia. They're actually worse than Britain and France, who at least follow international law to a degree. The Axis powers are blatantly expansionist and demanding territory and resources from others, making them no different.

The only real way the USA would join the Axis is if they decide Joe Stalin is a worse threat than Hitler.
 

gh79

Banned
Ban
How do the Germans deport anyone to British controlled Palestine with no ships in the Med - and Vichy French ships weren’t supposed to leave port per the Armistice? Why would Italy be suicidal to switch sides right after entering the War on the German’s side?

How does Japan invade Malaya in 1940 when their nearest base was in Taiwan with zero planning to make an invasion?

Even if Japan could attempt an invasion of Australia, the Australians wouldn’t fold up as you’ve described.

Overall, it is an entirely implausible series of events or a wish fulfillment scenario.
It makes zero sense, whatever the political leaning of the President of the USA there is no way they want to see the whole of Europe under the control of Nazi Germany, or any single power for that matter. Also the idea that Hitler won't invade the USSR is nonsense. Next to the destruction of the Jews, and deporting them to Palestine was just a way of sticking them in a giant ghetto, the conquest of Lebensraum in the east is the core objective of the Nazi's. Oh and if Germany has control of Poland that's another few million people to be slaughtered or worked to death as slave labour. This is another OP where the Nazi's suddenly stop being Nazi's and somehow achieve even more unbelievable levels of luck than OTL.

Germany only decided to Barbarossa as Sea Lion had to be cancelled due to the Lend-Lease support Britain was getting from US. As I explained in my scenario they cancel Barabarossa as they are exhausted from Sea Lion. Poland was virulently Anti-semitic. Most massacres were done with enthusiastic local Polish and Ukrainian support. if the Germans remoe the Jews from Poland they become heroes to the local population and do not have to deal with partisans.

What people dont realize is that there wasnt much differnce between Nazi attitudes to Jews and British, French, American or Polish attitude to Jews. The nazis were not some monsters out of a Grimm fairy tale. They were products of their time. in fact prior to the rise of Nazis Germany treated its Jews much better than almost any European nation.
 

gh79

Banned
Except it's clear the Axis forces are all about colonialism and aggressive expansion. Germany across Europe, Italy across the Mediterranean, and Japan across Asia. They're actually worse than Britain and France, who at least follow international law to a degree. The Axis powers are blatantly expansionist and demanding territory and resources from others, making them no different.

The only real way the USA would join the Axis is if they decide Joe Stalin is a worse threat than Hitler.

Conquest is not the same as colonialism. e.g. America did not colonize California - it conquered California. As long as the captured territories in Europe get to elect representatives to the Reichstag its not colonialism

Many believed Churchill to be a bigger monster than Hitler given the millions he starved to death in India. If Roosevelt grew a conscience he definitely would not support UK
 
What people dont realize is that there wasnt much differnce between Nazi attitudes to Jews and British, French, American or Polish attitude to Jews. The nazis were not some monsters out of a Grimm fairy tale. They were products of their time. in fact prior to the rise of Nazis Germany treated its Jews much better than almost any European nation.

Many believed Churchill to be a bigger monster than Hitler given the millions he starved to death in India. If Roosevelt grew a conscience he definitely would not support UK

there are grey areas in history, such as the methods Churchill (had to IMO) employ, which during this time are perhaps being overstated?

and then there is total BS, which you have overloaded your wagon with ...
 
I think even the average American Anti-semite would balk at their country joining the Nazis once the news about the mass exterminations got out. Also, decolonization happened in part because Great Britain essentially bankrupted itself fighting World War 2.
 
Conquest is not the same as colonialism. e.g. America did not colonize California - it conquered California. As long as the captured territories in Europe get to elect representatives to the Reichstag its not colonialism

Many believed Churchill to be a bigger monster than Hitler given the millions he starved to death in India. If Roosevelt grew a conscience he definitely would not support UK
The Mexican-American War was clearly characterized, even in its time, as a bully and thief beating up a weaker neighbor and taking his property. And yet it still happened, thanks to the Manifest Destiny belief among Americans.

And politics is not a place for conscience. The US' interests and trade lay with Britain, France, and China, with Germany, Japan, and USSR more distant. Much as the USA disapproved of the European colonial empires, pragmatism came first.

And while Churchill did starve the poor Bengalis, the man was a) an Imperialistic atavistic asshole trying to hold on to the Empire and b) trying to make the difficult decision of keeping parts of the Empire fed at the expense of others. He could have gone about it better, admittedly, but he had a choice to make. Germany slaughtered six million or more Europeans simply because they wanted them out of the way when Germany claimed all their territory. And it wasn't like the Japanese were better (beheading contests in Nanjing, comfort women, skewering pregnant women, etc...), and the Italians had committed genocide in Libya a decade prior because the locals were resisting them.

Yes, everyone was dirty, and had blood on their hands. That includes the USA (look up the Tagalog revolts sometime).
Germany only decided to Barbarossa as Sea Lion had to be cancelled due to the Lend-Lease support Britain was getting from US. As I explained in my scenario they cancel Barabarossa as they are exhausted from Sea Lion. Poland was virulently Anti-semitic. Most massacres were done with enthusiastic local Polish and Ukrainian support. if the Germans remoe the Jews from Poland they become heroes to the local population and do not have to deal with partisans.

What people dont realize is that there wasnt much differnce between Nazi attitudes to Jews and British, French, American or Polish attitude to Jews. The nazis were not some monsters out of a Grimm fairy tale. They were products of their time. in fact prior to the rise of Nazis Germany treated its Jews much better than almost any European nation.
I actually had to go back and read that twice. Just to make sure I wasn't hallucinating those lines. Jesus Christ.

Krystallnacht? The Yellow Badges? Banning Jews from all businesses and burning or confiscating any stores they owned? Forcing many into exile before WW2? Yes, the other European countries were kind of assholes when it came to anti-Semitism before 1945, but the Nazis kind of topped all that.
 
There's exactly one scenario where the USA joins the Axis (as in Germany-Italy-Japan), and that would be if the United States became a Fascist government a la It Can't Happen Here. Basically, they wouldn't be joining because they hate the British, they'd be anti-Communist and trying to expand across the Americas but the League of Nations keep getting in their way.
 
Conquest is not the same as colonialism. e.g. America did not colonize California - it conquered California.
What? I mean, yes, they conquered it off Mexico, but then... well, California went from lightly populated by people of European descent to heavily populated and exploited. The native population was either exterminated or driven onto reservations.

When that happened in South America, Africa or Australia it gets called colonization. So how the bloody hell is it different when Americans do it?
Many believed Churchill to be a bigger monster than Hitler given the millions he starved to death in India.
The British administration in India deserve a lot of blame for slow and incompetent famine relief... But the famine itself started due to causes beyond easy control (loss of Burmese rice imports, wartime inflation, internal trade barriers, reduced local harvests and to some degree hording and profiteering) and there's no meaningful evidence that the British government actively tried to make the famine worse, but wartime logistics did restrict useful aid from outside India.

That's rather different from rampaging on a murder spree across all of Europe because the rantings of a madman claimed Germans were better than everyone else...
 
What people dont realize is that there wasnt much differnce between Nazi attitudes to Jews and British, French, American or Polish attitude to Jews. The nazis were not some monsters out of a Grimm fairy tale. They were products of their time. in fact prior to the rise of Nazis Germany treated its Jews much better than almost any European nation.

I was going to compose a long response to your post where you quoted me but since you are nothing abut a Nazi apologist that would be a waste of time. The Nazi regime was monstrous and genocidal by design, if they were not monsters then no one was.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
Germany only decided to Barbarossa as Sea Lion had to be cancelled due to the Lend-Lease support Britain was getting from US. As I explained in my scenario they cancel Barabarossa as they are exhausted from Sea Lion. Poland was virulently Anti-semitic. Most massacres were done with enthusiastic local Polish and Ukrainian support. if the Germans remoe the Jews from Poland they become heroes to the local population and do not have to deal with partisans.

What people dont realize is that there wasnt much differnce between Nazi attitudes to Jews and British, French, American or Polish attitude to Jews. The nazis were not some monsters out of a Grimm fairy tale. They were products of their time. in fact prior to the rise of Nazis Germany treated its Jews much better than almost any European nation.
There was almost no difference between Nazi and British or American attitudes towards Jews.

We all remember the Liverpool extermination cam- What? There was not death camp complex in the UK? But if the British had the same attitude- Oh, they didn't. Not even close.

Well, how about the American death squads in Brooklyn? Huh? Never happened? Never even in a movie? Ever?

So the only country that set up an industrialized chain of extermination camps was Nazi Germany? Only country with anything remotely resembling Einsatzgruppen? Only country where the government diverted critically needed transportation assets from the military, while losing the GD war, to ensure a few more Jews were killed was Nazi Germany?

It has been a while since we had any actual Honest-to-God Nazi Apologists slither through the door. I SO glad you did it while I was on-line.

This is one of the few things about being a Mod I enjoy.

Banned.

We divorce you.

To Coventry with you.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top