US politics in a Nazis Win TL

@Faeelin: I think you misunderstood my intentions their. What I meant was this: Nazi-Germany would have to develop nuclear weapons and a sufficient delivery system to deter the US from attacking some day, say in the early fifties. This will not work without having a well developed scientific basis in key technologies. And this basis (even though once it was there) was eroding quickly. Without at least losening their "Jewish Scinence" doctrine this will not happen or too late for that matter.

To have a cold war Nazi-Germany in 2008 it has to have a decent scientific basis. It may (and surely for that matter) lag behind the Western allies, but without at least a standard of the USSR OTL, there is no chance of a cold war developing. The US will obliterate the Nazis using the first casus belli in sight and there will be plenty.

And what is even more important I find it rather difficult to envision a Nazi victory without getting some saner persons on the leading position. A Nazi victory will still be hardly feasible but it seems to me that a prerequisite are some changes of their insane and radical doctrines concerning their conquered territory and their scientific understanding.

That does not mean they will have a leading role in technology (perhaps with the exception of one or two special military advances like uboats). And that does not mean that Nazi-Germany would be a nice place to live in. And it does not mean they will win the cold war. They will collapse some day. But they need a scientific standard, an industrial basis and sufficient manpower that allows them to deter the US from attacking. Otherweise they have not the power to wage a (long) cold war. The USSR was in there for 45 years. They lacked the high scientific standard most western countries enjoyed but they had a sufficient sicientific standard and industrial basis to develop and build the weapon systems to deter the US and feeding their population during this period. Without that a (prolonged) cold war (and therefore the TL Feanor suggested) is not feasible.

Considering the development in China I think such ideological changes are possible but not the most probable outcome.

To summarize: I do not want to give the Germans a pass. I just stated:
1. A TL with a cold war between the US and Nazi-Germany up until 2008 needs some changes on Nazi doctrine - especially regarding the scientific area and the policies concerning the conquered people - for going on up until 2008 even in the economic sector (cf. China).
2. Without these changes no (or a rather short) cold war, meaning either
a) finally the destruction of Nazi-Germany on the hands of the US or
b) a "nazified" US friendly or neutral with a friendly tendency towards Nazi-Germany.

So I hope I could clear up what I perceived as a misunderstanding (but perhaps there was not any). I know my written English needs some training, but I try hard to get it right.

Kind regards,
G.
 
Who said this ATL US would be poorer? They would have a larger population base due to immigration from Europe in the 1940s - and other posters have already mentioned free trade agreements among this ATL UN.

Free trade with who?

The US had, compared to the 1920s and 1930s, "free" trade with Western Europe OTL. In the ATL... not so much. Argentina (even assuming it doesn't tilt towards Germany) ain't worth Italy.

Then what's the point of this thread? If Nazi Germany would have stopped or drastically slowed scientific development, the US would have wiped them out as soon as they had a large enough nuclear arsenal (due to lack of MAD). This TL would be over in the 1950s.

There was no MAD in the 1950s; the Soviets essentially could threaten to destroy an American city or two and nuke Europe. Yet there was never a war, no?

So every ATL story that has the UK eventually going fascist in a Nazi victory is wrong. Right...

It is sadly inevitable, I suppose. Just as the presence of the Red Army in East Germany led to the inevitable triumph of the Communists and the Finlandization of Western Europe.

Hrmm.

Again, if Hitler (or his successor) was dumb enough to kill off every non-German scientist in every subjugated country, this ATL Cold War would be over in ten years.

They need not kill them off; Nazi ideology and the police state will do the job.

You can be a major power and be economically and technologically backwards; look at the USSR.
 
feanor512 said:
I'm surprised no European posters have said anything about your idiocy.
I gave the world wide web as the first example of a non-military technology developed in OTL Europe that came to mind... However, do you honestly believe that there are no OTL Western European technologies that Nazi Germany would have developed?
A few other points: I never claimed that the world wide web was "purely" European, as you are claiming that it is purely American. However, the initial research took place in Europe.
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DerGreif said: @Magniac: I think maybe you confuse the Internet with the WorldWideWeb. While the first was developed in the USA, the letter was created at CERN by a UK scientist (if I remember correctly). Of course, you are right if you meant with "franchise" that the www depends on a network like the Internet which originally was a (military) US invention.

Ahh, enough with this Web-egg-preceding-a-Net-chicken rubbish.
(Anyway, Sir Tim Berners-Lee could be a Little Englander for all you two know--what do you wanna bet his parents have never even considered themselves 'European'?)
It's distracting from the real foolishness here.
The question that really matters is not whether-or-not the Nazis were technologically proficient enough to at least plan a version of the medium we're on.
The question is this: How can a Reich that pursues an aggressive stance against the West and its values ever risk creating a true information superhighway?

feanor512 said:
Also, another poster mentioned that Nazi Germany would develop a competing but separate internet called ReichNet. Did you jump on him?

I wasn't on this thread when that was posted, but yes, I would have questioned his belief (and yours) that a totalitarian regime can ever allow free use of digital media.

Look at the PRC regime and its attempt to control the Internet within its borders. Can you honestly imagine a totalitarian regime so resolutely opposed to Wall Street's liberal capitalism (a position which I think would be pretty non-negotiable for a victorious Third Reich which has recently murdered almost all of European Jewry) having a computer network anywhere as extensive as even today's Communist China?

feanor512 said:
However, do you honestly believe that there are no OTL Western European technologies that Nazi Germany would have developed?

Depends on the usefulness/danger of the tech to Dear Leader. There's no way a Reich that functions at the level of Brezhnev's Soviet Union or Mao's China is going to pursue consumer technology with the intensity Western Europe did during the Cold War era.
Take away the drive for widespread consumer AV gear because it might be used to weaken the state's control of society (see my above example of photocopiers in the USSR), and you basically have an economy that doesn't progress beyond Brezhnev Soviet Communism, not without being forced to liberalise.
You can have a Reichnet, but only when the Reich goes the way of post-Tito Yugoslavia.

Anyway, I mentioned before that the issue of Nazi mismanagement of science and technology has been discussed at length on AH before (if not in this thread); from the always sexy V weapons program, to the crappy mobilisation of the wartime economy, even the possibility of a post-war space mission. But most illuminating is Faeelin's take on the dumbing down of Germany's education system before the first shot was even fired in the Second World War.
These guys didn't value learning all that much.

feanor512 said:
So every ATL story that has the UK eventually going fascist in a Nazi victory is wrong. Right...

Faeelin said:
It is sadly inevitable, I suppose. Just as the presence of the Red Army in East Germany led to the inevitable triumph of the Communists and the Finlandization of Western Europe.

I'm beginning to wonder if feanor512 isn't actually positing a hypothetical badass EU instead of a successful Axis. Back-off Brussels!

feanor512 said:
Again, if Hitler (or his successor) was dumb enough to kill off every non-German scientist in every subjugated country, this ATL Cold War would be over in ten years.

He can only cast his eyes longingly towards Oxbridge after he's taken every undesirable on the continent back to year zero.
 
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Ian the Admin

Administrator
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It's shocking to me that anyone could lack such basic knowledge of the governing principles of Hitler's regime that they'd ask, "Would they kill off all the African, Middle Eastern, European, Russian, etc scientists," and not know how foolish a question that is. (Though I just realised you're absolutely right to ask whether Hitler would destroy Britain's education system--not that it has anything whatever to do with your woeful, uninformed notion of Nazi productivity in the 'subjugated countries'.)

There is no excuse for such ridiculous rudeness on this board. People here treat each other with a higher standard of respect. Consider this an official warning.
 
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