US politics in a Nazis Win TL
- Thread starter Max Sinister
- Start date
Wow. Great thread.
I have a few comments and questions.
I think that in 2008 of this ATL, military technology would be a lot more advanced. With Nazi Germany controlling everything from the former UK to the Urals and the Middle East, they'd have a MUCH greater industrial base than the Soviet Union ever had. Both sides would have contributed more to defense R&D. Also, in OTL, US and Soviet/Russian military development slowed substantially in the 1980s and 1990s. You wouldn't have that if this ATL Cold War was still going on.
In the private sector, the US would not be as advanced in this timeline. Everything that was developed in OTL Western Europe (stuff like the world wide web) would either be not developed at all, developed later in the United States, or be developed for Nazi Germany.
Without recovering any Type XXI U-Boats, the US submarine program would lag behind at first. I assume that Germany would have top notch SSNs (imagine Seawolfs with titanium hulls) and AIP SSPs. Would they have gone for parity for surface fleets?
As soon as the US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Nazi Germany would scramble production of Ta-183s.
Both sides would have orbital bombers, space fighters, and orbital weapons platforms.
Without access to Middle Eastern oil, the US, Japan, and China would have invested a lot more into battery and capacitor research. Battlefield lasers might then be possible.
I have a few comments and questions.
I think that in 2008 of this ATL, military technology would be a lot more advanced. With Nazi Germany controlling everything from the former UK to the Urals and the Middle East, they'd have a MUCH greater industrial base than the Soviet Union ever had. Both sides would have contributed more to defense R&D. Also, in OTL, US and Soviet/Russian military development slowed substantially in the 1980s and 1990s. You wouldn't have that if this ATL Cold War was still going on.
In the private sector, the US would not be as advanced in this timeline. Everything that was developed in OTL Western Europe (stuff like the world wide web) would either be not developed at all, developed later in the United States, or be developed for Nazi Germany.
Without recovering any Type XXI U-Boats, the US submarine program would lag behind at first. I assume that Germany would have top notch SSNs (imagine Seawolfs with titanium hulls) and AIP SSPs. Would they have gone for parity for surface fleets?
As soon as the US nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Nazi Germany would scramble production of Ta-183s.
Both sides would have orbital bombers, space fighters, and orbital weapons platforms.
Without access to Middle Eastern oil, the US, Japan, and China would have invested a lot more into battery and capacitor research. Battlefield lasers might then be possible.
I'm sorry, but the above quote is just wildly inaccurate. It's like me saying that without the invention of the 'black box' by Australian inventors there's bugger all modern aviation safety practices or fly-by-wire technology in the jetliner you fly to your vacation spot in.
Anyway, a bunch of people here have put the case that Nazi R&D falls to pieces the further the Reich moves away from the era of a non-totalitarian education system; I think it's also been argued that the obsession with 'Jew science' can never be ditched by the Nazi regime, unlike Lysenkoism in the Soviet Union.
Look at the part that you didn't bold:
I didn't see much discussion of it in this thread.
Would they kill off all the African, Middle Eastern, European, Russian, etc scientists? Would they ban science education for people in subjugated countries?
Would a victorious Nazi Germany not realize that they need to compete technologically with the US?
Is there any chance that Hiroshima and Nagasaki would have led to a crash science program in Nazi Germany (like Sputnik did in OTL US)?
They'd kill off all the Russian and Eastern European scientists, yes. They tried OTL.
feanor said:
You're right, I bolded the wrong sentence. Instead of mocking you for failing to see that the www is nothing more than a franchise of American technology, I should have focused on this line...
...where you assert that the Third Reich would willingly build the greatest unmediated electronic forum in history.
Maganic said:
feanor said:
There are plenty of threads on AH about the weaknesses of the Nazi's scientific and economic planning.
You know all that living space they seized to the east?
None of the local inhabitants were to receive any more education than was necessary to ennable them to spell their names, read road signs etc.
That's a ludicrous claim.
I gave it as an example of a technology developed in Europe OTL. However, there are other OTL European technologies (think military) that would have been developed by the Nazis in this ATL.
Sorry. I'm new here.
What about the UK? Would the Nazis have burned down all of their universities?
How could a police state that thought physics was a Jewish science be as effective as capitalist democracies at innovating?
I didn't make that claim.
You argue that military technology would be ahead of OTL, don't you?
I never argued that the OTL Soviet Union was a capitalist democracy.
I think the US would be more militarily advanced in this ATL (this Cold War would have been more intense so the US would have spent more on defense and US defense spending would not have slowed in the 1990s and 2000s b/c Nazi Germany would still be around unlike the OTL Soviet Union.)
As for ATL Nazi Germany, would they really be technologically behind the OTL Soviet Union, year by year? Was fascism sufficiently worse at technological innovation than communism to more than make up for ATL Nazi Germany's greater population than OTL Soviet Union?
This isn't how science works. Technological advancement requires a foundation in a large scientific base; if anything, your US, being poorer than OTL, will be less advanced militarily.
Ayup.
Moreover, it would certainly be less advanced than Western Germany, France, and Great Britain.
Magniac said:
feanor512 said:
Paging all American AH.com readers,
All patriotic U.S. AHers to the bumped thread in 'After 1900', please.
Thank you for your co-operation.
Magniac said:
That second quote of mine is a serious criticism, prompted by this...
feanor512 said:
...which led to the following uncomprehending response...
feanor512 said:
You have no idea just how impossible something like the Internet is under a totalitarian regime, do you?
The pre-Glasnost Soviet Union restricted its citizens' access to photo copy machines.
What makes you think a modern Nazi regime would build a freely and commercially available Internet ala this purely European web you're trumpeting?
feanor512 said:
So, what of the UK? So you assume that Great Britain and Ireland would somehow be integrated into the Reich's economy?
Well, I guess if the Germans were ever to dominate Europa then ideally they ought to have had the assistance of every community they thought somewhat racially acceptable.
But they wouldn't get any assistance from any country outside the Axis without the use of the bayonet. And this with the peoples Nazi doctrine considered to be human.
It's shocking to me that anyone could lack such basic knowledge of the governing principles of Hitler's regime that they'd ask, "Would they kill off all the African, Middle Eastern, European, Russian, etc scientists," and not know how foolish a question that is. (Though I just realised you're absolutely right to ask whether Hitler would destroy Britain's education system--not that it has anything whatever to do with your woeful, uninformed notion of Nazi productivity in the 'subjugated countries'.)
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Snake Featherston
Banned
Would the Nazi Empire be so keen to allow de-colonization as the USSR was? I mean, Soviet ideology was able to be for de-colonization (the Warsaw Pact and USSR itself excluded, of course). For some reason, I don't see the Nazis being that tolerant of the idea. Matter of fact, in a Nazis-victorious scenario, I see colonialism being supported by the Empire in a far more overt manner than the OTL US did, and the US, if anything, playing the role of the USSR in financing anti-colonial insurgencies...
I can also see any Nazi Europe running into a problem of overstretch, unless a man like Heydrich or maybe Goering takes over who can be willing to be enough of a bully to subdue the Nazi Party and the SS.
I can also see any Nazi Europe running into a problem of overstretch, unless a man like Heydrich or maybe Goering takes over who can be willing to be enough of a bully to subdue the Nazi Party and the SS.
@Magniac: I think maybe you confuse the Internet with the WorldWideWeb. While the first was developed in the USA, the letter was created at CERN by a UK scientist (if I remember correctly). Of course, you are right if you meant with "franchise" that the www depends on a network like the Internet which originally was a (military) US invention.
As far as science in a Nazi-win-TL goes: I think that there is no way that the Nazis could have won and even waged a decade long cold war successfully (read as in still being there and not killed off the map) without losing some of there radical doctrines especially those regarding "Jewish Science".
Kind regards,
G.
As far as science in a Nazi-win-TL goes: I think that there is no way that the Nazis could have won and even waged a decade long cold war successfully (read as in still being there and not killed off the map) without losing some of there radical doctrines especially those regarding "Jewish Science".
Kind regards,
G.
JJohnson
Banned
I would doubt that; the Fascists had quite a bit in common with communists, and the two had to demonize each other to gain their followers. They were so similar in terms of economic policies, they were essentially two different factions on what we would call the left. The fascists in Italy thought FDR a kindred spirit, and the New Republic routinely had positive things to say in the 20s and 30s on Mussolini, and I think Hitler as well. Progressives here were Fascists in Italy and Europe in the 1910s and 1920s. They differed by degree only.
James
But given their manifestly self-destructive policies OTL, and the existence of states which couldn't maintain a decades long cold war successfully, why do the Germans get a pass?
Who said this ATL US would be poorer? They would have a larger population base due to immigration from Europe in the 1940s - and other posters have already mentioned free trade agreements among this ATL UN.
Then what's the point of this thread? If Nazi Germany would have stopped or drastically slowed scientific development, the US would have wiped them out as soon as they had a large enough nuclear arsenal (due to lack of MAD). This TL would be over in the 1950s.
I'm surprised no European posters have said anything about your idiocy.
I gave the world wide web as the first example of a non-military technology developed in OTL Europe that came to mind. Then I gave the three options (each technology would either not be developed, be developed in the ATL United States but later than OTL, or developed in Nazi Germany). Obviously the world wide web would only fall in to the first two categories. However, do you honestly believe that there are no OTL Western European technologies that Nazi Germany would have developed?
A few other points: I never claimed that the world wide web was "purely" European, as you are claiming that it is purely American. However, the initial research took place in Europe. Also, another poster mentioned that Nazi Germany would develop a competing but separate internet called ReichNet. Did you jump on him?
So every ATL story that has the UK eventually going fascist in a Nazi victory is wrong. Right...
Again, if Hitler (or his successor) was dumb enough to kill off every non-German scientist in every subjugated country, this ATL Cold War would be over in ten years.