US Pacific Fleet deploys to Singapore 1941

MatthewB

Banned
https://winstonchurchill.org/public...-and-roosevelt-s-secret-mission-to-singapore/

15 May 1940, Churchill suggested that the U.S. Navy use Britain’s Singapore base “in any way convenient,” hoping to keep “that Japanese dog quiet.”

What would have been the impact if FDR took up Churchill's offer? Certainly, FDR isn't going to send his battlefleet and carriers to Singapore. If they're leaving Haiwaian waters to rattle the Japanese they'd be going to the Philippines.

But after Japan seized FIC in Sept. 1940, FDR decides he'd better send something. The USN sends six cruisers, ten destroyers, and a dozen submarines to Singapore in November 1940, permanently basing them at Singapore until further notice.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Can't do it. There are exactly zero supplies for American ships in Singapore. I'm not talking just food. I mean spare parts and weapons. Not to mention the massive logistics tail that would be required to sustain any ships there. If FDR ordered that, his senior Naval commanders would resign in protest. The Navy barely based anything in the Philippines, and that was American territory that had been developed as a naval base for over a decade, because of a lack of infastructure. Pearl Harbor was barely developed in 1941 to support the fleet. The Navy will flat refuse to send the Asiatic Fleet to Singapore.
 
The USN sends six cruisers, ten destroyers, and a dozen submarines to Singapore in November 1940, permanently basing them at Singapore until further notice.

To be fair he's not talking the Pacific fleet, he's mainly talking elements of the Asiatic Fleet with a few extra cruisers thrown in. This probably can be done mainly by transferring some of the stores from Manila to Singapore. You also send part of the seagoing tail - the destroyer tender USS Black Hawk, one of the submarine tenders, and one of the seaplane tenders.

I could see the US doing this, provided the Commonwealth Navies and Dutch assign forces to Singapore as well and all of this is part of the larger naval buildup.

Ships obviously won't stay put, they will rotate to ports around the theater of operations.
 
Can't do it. There are exactly zero supplies for American ships in Singapore. ... Pearl Harbor was barely developed in 1941 to support the fleet. ...

Same for the Phillipines. Wholly inadequate as a base for the Pacific fleet. I don't know how much arguer a 'Asiatic fleet' PI could host but thats about it.

I suspect Churchill was thinking of the US moving the Asiatic fleet from a untenable position in PI to Singapore. Thats still difficult, & only a temporary measure. OTL it took six+ months to turn Wellington NZ into a viable base for a portion of the US fleet. We might think something similar in the case of Singapore?
 
Can't do it. There are exactly zero supplies for American ships in Singapore. I'm not talking just food. I mean spare parts and weapons. Not to mention the massive logistics tail that would be required to sustain any ships there. If FDR ordered that, his senior Naval commanders would resign in protest. The Navy barely based anything in the Philippines, and that was American territory that had been developed as a naval base for over a decade, because of a lack of infastructure. Pearl Harbor was barely developed in 1941 to support the fleet. The Navy will flat refuse to send the Asiatic Fleet to Singapore.
Its not the Pacific fleet its a cruiser surface group with a few escorts and odds and sods.

"six cruisers, ten destroyers, and a dozen submarines"

Supplies don't really matter if its a political show of force in peacetime to act as a deterrent, they simply will not use much and you can assume that you can rotate ships back to US every 6 months for more complicated stuff.

Once FDR orders it it will happen, I doubt anybody would actually resign about it, they will just make sure some of the ships come from the Asiatic fleet as its the easiest to move and that the rest are old and nearly worthless for the real fleet.

Say they start by sending a single CA (maybe USS Augusta as revenge on FDR) as flag ships and an Omaha class (promising to send more cruisers later) and 10 WWI flush decks as well as a couple of the submarine tenders from Cavite and 12 more old S class subs from US. They will also need to send a handful of merchant ships loaded with supplies to support them.
 
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Same for the Phillipines. Wholly inadequate as a base for the Pacific fleet. I don't know how much arguer a 'Asiatic fleet' PI could host but thats about it.

I suspect Churchill was thinking of the US moving the Asiatic fleet from a untenable position in PI to Singapore. Thats still difficult, & only a temporary measure. OTL it took six+ months to turn Wellington NZ into a viable base for a portion of the US fleet. We might think something similar in the case of Singapore?
6 months for Wellington; something similar for Singapore would allow some Asiatic fleet and a few others to move in in early 1941. Should complicate things for Japan a bit...maybe some Dutch subs and Do aircraft, too.
 
Prompts them to attempt to attack early before the USN gets settled in Singapore. The Japanese do not want any improvements to the defence of the Malay Barrier.
 
Prompts them to attempt to attack early before the USN gets settled in Singapore. The Japanese do not want any improvements to the defence of the Malay Barrier.
Suspect an earlier attack would be more risky for them, and more complicated, to boot.
 
Prompts them to attempt to attack early before the USN gets settled in Singapore. The Japanese do not want any improvements to the defence of the Malay Barrier.

Not sure about that, we are not talking about major elements of the US Fleet, it's just units of the Asiatic Fleet and maybe a few additional cruisers.

If they do attack early, it butterflies away Pearl Harbor, CARDIV 5 had just reached operational status OTL in late 41.
 
Does this cooperation between US and Britain rattle the Japanese?

They already we're rattled. US weapons we're showing up in China, the Brit far eastern empire, Dutch East Indies, Phillpines. They were aware of a steady increase in numbers and activities by the Brit, Dutch,US military attache officers with the embassies. They may have had some basic awarness the three nation's were starting joint war planning from mid 1941, & we're sharing intelligence.
 
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Not sure about that, we are not talking about major elements of the US Fleet, it's just units of the Asiatic Fleet and maybe a few additional cruisers.

If they do attack early, it butterflies away Pearl Harbor, CARDIV 5 had just reached operational status OTL in late 41.

To the Japanese though it could look like the first stage of a major redeployment of the Pacific Fleet.

I'm not sure an early attack would entirely butterfly Pearl Harbour, but it would reduce the size of the force sent.
 
OTL it took six+ months to turn Wellington NZ into a viable base for a portion of the US fleet. We might think something similar in the case of Singapore?
Singapore, though, has an established major naval dockyard complete with a dry dock able to take battleships... That's a better starting position than NZ (largest pre-war dry dock hard pressed to take a light cruiser). Of cause, still needs supplies of US munitions and so on... Suggest something more like 3-4 months?
 

MatthewB

Banned
I'm not sure an early attack would entirely butterfly Pearl Harbour, but it would reduce the size of the force sent.
I have the US naval force arriving in Singapore in Nov 1940. If the Japanese attack Singapore then, it would certainly butterfly away PH, and would definitely expedite the eleven Essex class then ordered.
 
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