US mass transit WI: Cincinnati subway completed and in use

Back in the 1910s, the city of Cincinnati began construction on a subway system as a means of supplementing its streetcar network. But due to budget shortfalls, changes in city leadership, the Great Depression, and the post-WWII shift to car-centric development, the subway was never completed or opened. Even with the newly built streetcar system that just opened a few days ago, there are no current plans to utilize the existing four mile-long tunnel for modern-day transit use.

What would it take for the system to be at least partly operational before, say, 2000? and what effects would it have on the city's development throughout the 20th century?
 
Woo, right up my ball of wax. :D

I'd argue that one of the biggest factors that significantly impacted the construction of the Cincinnati Subway (and it's original funding in the form of Modification H) was the concurrence of both the United States joining the First World War, the declaration of Ordinance 96-1917 illegal, and then finally the passage of the 18th Amendment. Ordinance 96-1917 made the Cincinnati Street Railway the leaser of the Rapid Transit Loop, and the Ohio Supreme Court ruled that Ordinance 96-1917 was invalid for whatever reason (it does not mention in the book) despite New York City having a similar setup. The rampant inflation as a result of the First World War significantly impacted the available money to the project, and the passage of the 18th Amendment in turn reduced the available tax base that Cincinnati relied upon, which thus tied into the issues of it hitting it's debt limit.

Hypothetically speaking, you could have had Murray Seasongood (who led the Charter Movement in reforming the Cincinnati city government and remove the preexisting local Republican machine) to have it succeed in some fashion along the West Side, but other issues emerged forcing it to be ended. In such a case, I'd probably place the chances under Seasongood for a completion of it as it existed, with it being extended to Fountain Avenue (which was where 47% of all origins and destinations for the trips were) as the terminus. This map would have nearly been the final result as it stood, with it extending somewhat to the south in Cincinnati for the terminus at Fountain Avenue.

One of the more interesting components of the Cincinnati Subway was that of Race Street Station, with it's fully intended five track operation. This was the case because of the Cincinnati Subway's operation of interurbans alongside the regular 'subway cars', where it was planned that the outer two tracks would be fully served by the full length cars (considering that the 'inner' two tracks would have had doors opening against columns), and the inner two tracks along with the pair of middle tracks (each terminating half way through) being operated by interurbans and then being turned at wyes on either side. How this would have faired with the eventual collapse of the interurbans would have been interesting.

The matter of the Cincinnati Subway and I-75 would be interesting, considering that along a fair amount of the route that the Cincinnati Subway was planned to run along was eventually supplanted by I-75. I could see some changes along I-75 as a result of how it winds downtown, because of the existing infrastructure though, although I'm not sure where.

I'm not sure in term of the effects of the development on Cincinnati throughout the rest of the 20th Century though. It might have encouraged the development of CVG being in Blue Ash rather than in Boone County, Kentucky (although you'd likely need a reduction of the supermajority laws from 65% to 55% much earlier, or have it as 55% originally rather than the 65%).
 
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One of the more interesting components of the Cincinnati Subway was that of Race Street Station, with it's fully intended five track operation. This was the case because of the Cincinnati Subway's operation of interurbans alongside the regular 'subway cars', where it was planned that the outer two tracks would be fully served by the full length cars (considering that the 'inner' two tracks would have had doors opening against columns), and the inner two tracks along with the pair of middle tracks (each terminating half way through) being operated by interurbans and then being turned at wyes on either side. How this would have faired with the eventual collapse of the interurbans would have been interesting.

....

Would the surface rail in the Cinncinatti region have had any viability post 1930? It survived in a few other regions, Chicago is one such.
 
Either. A few interurbans survived in the Chicago region.

Eh, I'm not really sure. Cincinnati is a much smaller city, and also by the time the Subway was beginning to operate, just about all of the interurbans were shuttered or in the process of shuttering. Maybe, you might have some portion of the Cincinnati & Lake Erie and the Cincinnati & Hamilton remain in some kind of suburban format, but I'd consider it really umnlikely with the focus of just keeping the subway operating.
 
WOW! Never figured I'd see this kind of posting, with this level of knowledge. FWIW, my dad told me stories (and his brothers and sisters) of him walking to a nearby town (about five miles away, at the edge the county) and taking light rail to Cincy. This was in the late thirties.
 
and the passage of the 18th Amendment in turn reduced the available tax base that Cincinnati relied upon, which thus tied into the issues of it hitting it's debt limit.
Prohibition? Was Cincinnati a big liquor producer? Why would Prohibition made such a big difference.

I don't doubt you, but I don't know enough to see the connexion.
 
What I'm curious about is the new rail system: does it use single or double overhead wires? No less a personage that William Howard Taft was the judge in a case that forced the street railroad system in the 1890s to go to a double wire overhead to prevent (as I recall) interference with telephone ground return. That yielded the only continental North America use of double wire overhead for streetcars (although Havana had a similar installation) and a weird wire gauge of 18" that continued in trolley coach days. That odd wire gauge meant that the trolley coaches that used the Dixie Terminal (coming across the river from Covington, KY) couldn't operate on Cincinnati streets and vice versa since the Covington TCs used a standard 24" wire gauge.

But getting back to the original question: one wonders if Taft's decision would have been overturned in, say, the 1920s given technological improvements that would have made the whole thing moot. That would have permitted interurbans (e.g., the Cincinnati and Lake Erie) to use the same tracks/overhead as the local cars.
 
Prohibition? Was Cincinnati a big liquor producer? Why would Prohibition made such a big difference.

I don't doubt you, but I don't know enough to see the connexion.

Well, it was more the double whammy of the US entrance into WWI and the passage of the 18th. Over-the-Rhine was a big area of breweries along with being the largest area of German-speakers/immigrants (I believe) in Cincinnati. Essentially, it started the decline there, and there were a large amount of bars and breweries in Cincinnati which got shuttered due to the 18th.

What I'm curious about is the new rail system: does it use single or double overhead wires? No less a personage that William Howard Taft was the judge in a case that forced the street railroad system in the 1890s to go to a double wire overhead to prevent (as I recall) interference with telephone ground return. That yielded the only continental North America use of double wire overhead for streetcars (although Havana had a similar installation) and a weird wire gauge of 18" that continued in trolley coach days. That odd wire gauge meant that the trolley coaches that used the Dixie Terminal (coming across the river from Covington, KY) couldn't operate on Cincinnati streets and vice versa since the Covington TCs used a standard 24" wire gauge.

But getting back to the original question: one wonders if Taft's decision would have been overturned in, say, the 1920s given technological improvements that would have made the whole thing moot. That would have permitted interurbans (e.g., the Cincinnati and Lake Erie) to use the same tracks/overhead as the local cars.

Considering the subway would have been on a separate RoW, it would have used a single wire overhead for the interurbans and third rail for the rapid transit cars. Streetcars would not have operated on it (unless you are referring to the proposal put forth by the WPA but that's a different ball of wax), with only the interurbans and rapid transit cars operating upon it. That was as originally planned, so the above head wires might be removed later on once the interurbans had finally keeled over.
 
Prohibition? Was Cincinnati a big liquor producer? Why would Prohibition made such a big difference.
It was massive in Cincinnati. The neighborhood the canal ran through was the Brewery District on one side, and Over the Rhine on the other (so named because German immigrants called the canal the Rhine as a joke, and it was "Over-the-Rhine" from where they worked.) According to one source here, Cincinnati brewers in the 1890s were turning out 35 million gallons a year[/quote]. The neighborhood of Over the Rhine remains to this day.
 
It was massive in Cincinnati. The neighborhood the canal ran through was the Brewery District on one side, and Over the Rhine on the other (so named because German immigrants called the canal the Rhine as a joke, and it was "Over-the-Rhine" from where they worked.) According to one source here, Cincinnati brewers in the 1890s were turning out 35 million gallons a year. The neighborhood of Over the Rhine remains to this day.
You've pretty much hit the mark on it. Even today my home city is a big producer of alcohol, although it's not as prominent as it was before prohibition.
 
What I'm curious about is the new rail system: does it use single or double overhead wires? No less a personage that William Howard Taft was the judge in a case that forced the street railroad system in the 1890s to go to a double wire overhead to prevent (as I recall) interference with telephone ground return. That yielded the only continental North America use of double wire overhead for streetcars (although Havana had a similar installation) and a weird wire gauge of 18" that continued in trolley coach days. That odd wire gauge meant that the trolley coaches that used the Dixie Terminal (coming across the river from Covington, KY) couldn't operate on Cincinnati streets and vice versa since the Covington TCs used a standard 24" wire gauge.

But getting back to the original question: one wonders if Taft's decision would have been overturned in, say, the 1920s given technological improvements that would have made the whole thing moot. That would have permitted interurbans (e.g., the Cincinnati and Lake Erie) to use the same tracks/overhead as the local cars.
Columbus OH and Indianapolis, possibly Dayton OH, used double overhead lines.
 
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