US has no Pacific holdings by World War 2

Gan

Banned
For whatever reason the United States has no holdings in the Pacific when World War Two breaks out, no Philippines, Hawaii, Guam, or anything.

How does this affect the war, particularly the United States and Japan?
 
Hasn't USA even Alaska and Pacific States? This would demand much earlier POD and then things might change much.
 
Hasn't USA even Alaska and Pacific States? This would demand much earlier POD and then things might change much.
I assumed he meant the US doesn't have their colonial possessions in Guam, Philippines and such.

Regardless, I don't think the US would have as much stake in the Pacific as they did IOTL.
 

Gan

Banned
Hasn't USA even Alaska and Pacific States? This would demand much earlier POD and then things might change much.

I'm only referring to Pacific islands. Alaska and the West Coast are still US.
 
Outside of Hawaii, some of the "bigger" ones can be thrown out with a different out come to the Spanish-American War.

Philippines-easy, German fleet gets there first, and keeping American fleet from taking it. OR The Teller amendment was never passed so Cuba becomes part of the US and Philippines remains Spanish

Guam - without the Philippines US doesn't get Guam as it was a way station for getting to the Philippines

Hawai'i - Minister Steven's doesn't call in US Marines when the Comity of Safety requests the help, thus letting the Kingdom defend it's self when attacked, or the Cleveland administration sticks to the Blount report, possibly going so far as to land forces to remove the Provisional government reinstating the Queen and the Kingdom.

Midway's a tad different, pretty much was claimed because of the guano there...only thing I could really see is possibly giving it to the Kingdom or the Spanish take it during the Spanish-American War.
 
Since the US had Pacific territory in 1900 and this is the Post 1900 forum that means the US lost that territory, since the US would not give up all of it willingly that means the territory was taken by force

The only people who could get away with that was the UK, who would have been allied with Japan at the time

Given that WWII and probably WWI end up completely different than OTL
 
What if the PI were given independence in 1940. The other islands let loose at same time.
 

katchen

Banned
I should think that without the Pacific islands (say, if the British or the Japanese got Hawaii before the US could get it), Americans would be more interested in Alaska and might well have built railways to it by WWII. And all or part of Alaska would be one or more states. Alaska has plenty of arable land. And ice free ports, on the Panhandle, at Valdez, Cordova and Seldovia on Prince William Sound and at Port Heiden and Port Moller on the Alaska Peninsula that are still part of the North American mainland. Railroads can be built to these places, and to Nome and the Bering Strait too.
Then from there, the Aleutian Islands are accesible, and those are closer to Japan than Hawaii is.
So the first question and the first branch in the TL is: Does the US actually build first railroads and then highways to Alaska across Canada?
Secondly, who actually gets Guam?
Thirdly, who gets Hawaii? Does Hawaii remain independent? Does Japan acquire Hawaii in the early 1900s? Does the UK acquire Hawaii and if so, does Hawaii become part of Canada? Could Hawaii not be American because it was ceded to Canada as a quid pro quo for a favorable settlement of Alaskan borders with Canada along with an easement and land grant for an American railroad company (either Union Pacific or Great Northern) to build a railroad across Canadian soil to Alaska --maybe because Senator Edward Teller R-CO wanted no more sugar cane territory inside the US competing with Colorado sugar beet producers? No Philippines for the US for the same reason? Philippines sold to Germany or allowed by US to be taken by Germany for that reason? If so, does Japan acquire Philippines after 1917? And if Japan does, does the US have any real conflict with Japan in 1940?
Lots of possible TLs here.
Fourthly: Who
 
Leaving aside the question of the Pacific islands for the moment; There was still the 'China Lobby' instigating friction with Japan. That would exist regardless of the islands. Perhaps it would be even more powerful as US business investment might have gone into China vs the Phillipines.

Second, the Japanese occupation of French Indo China was a major problem in the US, Japan took control of the rubber plantations from the French government, which threatened a serious blow to US business. ...and, or course there was the military threat to Britains and the Netherlands colonies from japans newly occupied military bases in Indo China. Roosevelt would not let that pass by.

Absent US islands to reinforce and fortify, a bit more military aid would go to the Netherlands East indies and Britain. Perhaps the US would even send US military units to the NEI earlier in 1941, akin to the US AVG air unit to China, or the US occupation of Iceland.

A close look would be made at the US use of Hawaii as a naval base for executing the Orange portion of the Rainbow war plans. That location might even be occupied in advance of a war starting.
 
Leaving aside the question of the Pacific islands for the moment; There was still the 'China Lobby' instigating friction with Japan. That would exist regardless of the islands. Perhaps it would be even more powerful as US business investment might have gone into China vs the Phillipines.

Second, the Japanese occupation of French Indo China was a major problem in the US, Japan took control of the rubber plantations from the French government, which threatened a serious blow to US business. ...and, or course there was the military threat to Britains and the Netherlands colonies from japans newly occupied military bases in Indo China. Roosevelt would not let that pass by.

Absent US islands to reinforce and fortify, a bit more military aid would go to the Netherlands East indies and Britain. Perhaps the US would even send US military units to the NEI earlier in 1941, akin to the US AVG air unit to China, or the US occupation of Iceland.

A close look would be made at the US use of Hawaii as a naval base for executing the Orange portion of the Rainbow war plans. That location might even be occupied in advance of a war starting.

Dutch East Indies.
 
Any TL where the Philippines never becomes an American colony would have serious butterflies down the road. I see no reason to assume that Imperial Japan would develop the same foeign policy. The Militarist take-over, the Second Sino-Japanese War... I see no reason to assume either would occur.

At any rate, a US that doesn't have Pacific colonies is probably much less envolved in East Asia as a whole. A big part of the argument for the US keeping the Philippines was that the US needed bases near China in order to be a big player in the China trade in the age of coal.
 
Dutch East Indies.

i've been scolded both ways on this more than once. It seems the majority of the inhabanats of that European region i've encountered prefer the term Netherlands, which makes me think the proper name is "Nederlands-Indië".

I've seen both versions in the literature so either way i am wrong I still am in good company.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
There is also the critical element of "security". The U.S. has, for as long as it had the ability to do so, made any water touching the borders an "American Lake". The fact that the Japanese didn't have a direct threat would matter very little. By 1840 the U.S. believed a minimum 800 miles from shore had to be controlled (the B-17 was not approved by Congress to Bomb Germany but to attack enemy fleets far out to sea). It is also worth keeping in mind that even a skinflint, isolationist Depression era Congress funded the USN to ensure it was ALWAYS at maximum tonnage under the Washington/London Naval Treaty.

The U.S. also had (and has) an almost Pavlovian reaction to any threats to "Freedom of the Seas". The Japanese intended to very much interfere with that sort of free passage. The U.S, as a government, regardless of party in power or "isolationism" would simply not have accepted that .
 

Gan

Banned
For better info let's say these territories all became independent and separated from the US for various reasons. Perhaps a result of stronger isolationism following World War 1?

The U.S. also had (and has) an almost Pavlovian reaction to any threats to "Freedom of the Seas". The Japanese intended to very much interfere with that sort of free passage. The U.S, as a government, regardless of party in power or "isolationism" would simply not have accepted that .

The problem with the idea that the U.S would eventually attack Japan even if they were not attack is that it gives us somewhat of a disadvantage, particularly in morale. Without an attack on the US would we be as committed to a war with Japan? Could said lack of commitment cost us?

That being said, would Japan have any reason at all to attack us first? If so, where at?
 
i've been scolded both ways on this more than once. It seems the majority of the inhabanats of that European region i've encountered prefer the term Netherlands, which makes me think the proper name is "Nederlands-Indië".

I've seen both versions in the literature so either way i am wrong I still am in good company.

in Dutch it is indeed Nederlands(ch) Indië, bowever the acronym for it is generally considered to be DEI, not NEI. Indië has also been called Insulinde; Nederlands Oost-Indië; Hindia-Belanda; Tanah Hindiah. All in all, there is not a single name for it.
 
For better info let's say these territories all became independent and separated from the US for various reasons. Perhaps a result of stronger isolationism following World War 1?

I dont see that. Isolationism was largely aimed at European political affairs. The US gradually expanded its military presence in China as part of its business protection = 'Open Door' policy. Post 1928 a Regiment of Marines, another of Army infantry (4th & 15th) and the USN Asiatic squadron of gun boats and visiting cruisers were kept in China. Until 1937-38 China had been a significant venue for US business, and the US had been active in Asian politics since Perry and his peers began nosing their squadrons around the Japanese and Korean ports. That changed little in the 1920s & 1930s.
 
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