US hardware in service with Communist Vietnam

[Monk78]

As we know US left a lot of hardware with south Vietnamese forces that were captured by communits
In otl most of this became inoperable quickly due to lack of spares

How can we have them equip several divisions and squadrons of the Vietnamese armed forces ( ensuring a decent supply of spares etc) and use them perhaps to completely rout the Chinese in the sino Vietnamese war

 

[CV12Hornet]

Unless the US sends South Vietnam a lot more kit before the fall of Saigon there just isn't enough of any of the ARVN's weapons systems to really equip many units. At best they might be able to put a reduced number of A-37 and F-5 squadrons - the South Vietnamese air force had 10 squadrons of the former and 6 of the latter.

In terms of tanks, with only 350 M41s and about 300 M48s sent over, that's not nearly enough to equip even one division after the losses South Vietnam suffered.

There really aren't any countries both willing to slip them more kit and parts under the table and in possession of enough of that kit to matter, either.

 

[Sam R.]

How can we have them equip several divisions and squadrons of the Vietnamese armed forces ( ensuring a decent supply of spares etc)

This is historical for the light infantry of PLAF local and provincial forces to 65. Mostly US small arms. Only dropped once etc.

The ARVN and United States was the primary weapons supplier for light infantry PLAF.

 

[SealTheRealDeal]

As we know US left a lot of hardware with south Vietnamese forces that were captured by communits
In otl most of this became inoperable quickly due to lack of spares

How can we have them equip several divisions and squadrons of the Vietnamese armed forces ( ensuring a decent supply of spares etc) and use them perhaps to completely rout the Chinese in the sino Vietnamese war

A lot of it was in service, and actually a lot of it was in service fairly recently. The M113 and derived vehicles are still in service with the VPA, as is the Cadillac Gage Commando and even the M16.* At the time both the F-5 and the UH-1 were also in use, however what you gotta remember is that by 1975 even the ARVN was having trouble keeping their aircraft in service, so it's quite amazing how much the VPA was able to salvage once the war was over.

Anyways, in terms of routing the Chinese the big ticket item would be the F5s for their excellent interdiction capabilities. The ARVN received 191 of them (mostly the earlier A model), the VPA captured 114 of them (mostly the A model) and was able to 41 into service (presumably all As) and they were used in the South against the Khmer Rouge. Ultimately 41 planes, even if ideally suited to attacks on Chinese supply lines, aren't going to have a major impact, especially as combat and maintenance losses mount. Had they somehow been able to get all 114 of them in service they might have had an appreciable impact.

*in fact they liked it so much that they produce their own AR-15 derived rifles, the M-18, so much for the guns being "unsuited to the Vietnamese environment" as is so often claimed...

 

[Monk78]

The Helicopters will probably the biggest asset given the terrain?

 

[RY1985]

As we know US left a lot of hardware with south Vietnamese forces that were captured by communits
In otl most of this became inoperable quickly due to lack of spares

How can we have them equip several divisions and squadrons of the Vietnamese armed forces ( ensuring a decent supply of spares etc) and use them perhaps to completely rout the Chinese in the sino Vietnamese war

Logistical support from other nations in terms of spare parts and other technical support, including refurbishment and maintenance. I actually am a native of the region and know something about the history.

But very unlikely though, in my opinion. At that time, the other countries of Indo-China, all the way down the malaysian peninsula, saw the Sino-Vietnam war as sort of a mixed blessing, because it took valuable Vietnamese resources away from the occupation of Cambodia; back then, there were reliable indications that the Vietnamese military were preparing to cross into Thailand (although everytime I state this, i am lambasted with howls of derision ).

In an ATL, one alternative way would be for the both circumstances to happen:
1) for the other nations, particularly Thailand, Malaysia and Singapore, to have much better relations with Vietnam's communist leadership. In OTL, all 3 nations were treated with great hostility by the newly-reunified Vietnam till the early 1990s
2) the invasion by China was seen as a prelude to a massive land invasion of all of Indochina by China, although this may require a much bigger butterfly effect. In OTL, China's leader was Deng Xiaoping, whom reached out to the other nations of Southeast Asia to build better ties. Maybe a different leader, with more hostility towards these nations? If so, then China would be seen as the greater threat.

Even then, the role of the US is critical. In OTL, during the early 1990s, Singapore's state-owned defence contractor actually got a contract to refurbishment and upgrade Vietnam's M113 APCs, which were from ARVN. Singapore had expertise as it also operated US-made M113. It was a low profile deal, but the US got wind of it and applied pressure to Singapore to cancel the contract, perhaps because the technology used for the refurbishment and upgrading was of US origin.

So in this ATL, even if the other nations were willing to provide maintenance support, they need to factor the US government in as well.

 

[Monk78]

I’ve read in Newsweek way back in 88 that Vietnam sold some equipment to Iran in the 80s ? That even accurate?

 

[Gillan1220]

I’ve read in Newsweek way back in 88 that Vietnam sold some equipment to Iran in the 80s ? That even accurate?

Interesting, I'll have to look at that.

As for your question, a handful of U.S. hardware is still Vietnamese hands. Notably, the M113 which the Vietnamese modified to have Russian engines and machine guns. Even in modern days, the M113 is used in training purposes.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/e4xqq7

https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/e509zo

https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/3gxc24

https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/e4tzv5

I did read that back then in the 1980s-90s, the Philippines expressed the desire to get the spare parts of the captured Hueys and F-5s to keep our fleet running. It did not push through, probably because the U.S. pressured our country not to do so because relations with Vietnam weren't normalized yet.

 

[bsmart]

The U.S. put the word out very quickly that anyone caught dealing with the Vietnamese to either buy ex MAP (Military Assistance program) or sell more or spares would be blacklisted for access to support for any equipment whether it was the Vietnam connected equipment or not. There was at least one attempt to sell an A-37 to a South American country through an International arms dealer. The ship it was on was 'convinced' to stop in an American port where the shipment was seized along with some drugs. I saw the A-37 at the Aviation Museum in Corning NY years ago. They were being allowed to display it as a static exhibit but had been told it would never be allowed to be registered for flight (First of all there weren't any official records for it or its engines)

Iran was reported to be the customer for many weapons and components since they were blacklisted by the U.S. already. Some equipment went to the Soviet Union very soon after the capture of South Vietnam for evaluation.

I remember seeing a lot of footage of American TOWs being used in the last days of South Vietnam to destroy abandoned equipment like helicopters and tanks. They were not targeting North Vietnamese forces at all just ex-American equipment. I was also told by Navy pilots that they flew missions off the carriers to do the same thing. They said that often there were not North Vietnamese forces nearby and there was no AA fire when they were flying these missions.

 

[Gillan1220]

The U.S. put the word out very quickly that anyone caught dealing with the Vietnamese to either buy ex MAP (Military Assistance program) or sell more or spares would be blacklisted for access to support for any equipment whether it was the Vietnam connected equipment or not. There was at least one attempt to sell an A-37 to a South American country through an International arms dealer. The ship it was on was 'convinced' to stop in an American port where the shipment was seized along with some drugs. I saw the A-37 at the Aviation Museum in Corning NY years ago. They were being allowed to display it as a static exhibit but had been told it would never be allowed to be registered for flight (First of all there weren't any official records for it or its engines)

Iran was reported to be the customer for many weapons and components since they were blacklisted by the U.S. already. Some equipment went to the Soviet Union very soon after the capture of South Vietnam for evaluation.

I remember seeing a lot of footage of American TOWs being used in the last days of South Vietnam to destroy abandoned equipment like helicopters and tanks. They were not targeting North Vietnamese forces at all just ex-American equipment. I was also told by Navy pilots that they flew missions off the carriers to do the same thing. They said that often there were not North Vietnamese forces nearby and there was no AA fire when they were flying these missions.

Regarding the A-37, so the Vietnamese were trying to sell it to South America? But only one plane? I'm guessing it was to be sold to Venezuela?

I do recall how the Soviet Union manage to get their hands on an F-5. The Vietnamese basically handed it to them, along with numerous U.S. equipments and their parts. Made sure that the Soviets could reverse engineer them just like the B-29s that landed in the USSR during WWII and the Sidewinder missile that stuck into a Chinese jet during the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis in 1958.

Got to give credits to the ARVN for destroying much of their equipment. Even then, the ones that remained intact only saw limited service by the North Vietnamese in the years that followed.

 

[Monk78]

Regarding the A-37, so the Vietnamese were trying to sell it to South America? But only one plane? I'm guessing it was to be sold to Venezuela?

I do recall how the Soviet Union manage to get their hands on an F-5. The Vietnamese basically handed it to them, along with numerous U.S. equipments and their parts. Made sure that the Soviets could reverse engineer them just like the B-29s that landed in the USSR during WWII and the Sidewinder missile that stuck into a Chinese jet during the Second Taiwan Strait Crisis in 1958.

Got to give credits to the ARVN for destroying much of their equipment. Even then, the ones that remained intact only saw limited service by the North Vietnamese in the years that followed.

going to some drug cartel maybe even one plane can ruin the operations of its rival gang for yrs to come

 

[Gillan1220]

going to some drug cartel maybe even one plane can ruin the operations of its rival gang for yrs to come

It's definitely going to add to the firepower of the drug cartel.

 

[kham_coc]

Otl, the south Vietnamese forces fought, maybe you could get a more rapid disintegration with whole army commands just going over wholesale? That way, less would be expended, and less would be destroyed by retreating Americans.

 

[9 Fanged Hummingbird]

PAVN M48s in service during the Cambodian war. As the above posts said, this is partially OTL, you're just not gonna get enough to outfit whole divisions or squadrons with ex-American materials, but it wasn't wasted in communist Vietnamese hands.