US Congress outlaws stars and bars?

What if after Union victory that US Congress had outlawed the Stars and Bars?

Stars and Bars weren't even the Confederate Flag at the end of the war. The Blood-stained banner was. If Stars and Bars was outlawed, the Rebs would just use the Battle Flag or the aformentioned stained banner, and the move would only raise resentment against the North.
 
My impression is that in the immediate aftermath of the ACW the stars and bars was not a majort symbol of the racist resistence.

In later years I rather assume that the Supreme Court would, quite rightly, stike down such a law as contary to the 1st Amendment
 
In later years I rather assume that the Supreme Court would, quite rightly, stike down such a law as contary to the 1st Amendment

Almost certainly. Banning the stars and bars would be blatantly unconstitutional.

Also, the Stars and Bars didn't assume it's current meaning - a living symbol of Southern resistance and white Southern pride - until the 1950s or so. Prior to that it was associated mainly with the "Lost Cause" Mythology.
 
The Stars and Bars was already ended by the Confederates in 1863. They then took the Battle Flag (St. Andrew's Cross with stars on red background) and put it in the upper-left corner on a white field. In 1865, they added a red band on the left side to signify the blood spent fighting for the "Cause." So I have to ask, which flag are you banning?

The "Rebel" flag that people fly today is the Confederate Battle Flag. Those of us who watch CW movies will also recognize the US Battle Flag, which put the stars in two circles with four stars at the corners of the upper-left field.

If you're proposing banning the Rebel Battle Flag, I actually agree with you. Those men who died in the 1860s gave their lives for a greater cause than simple racism, and the fact that it's been expropriated now to represent Southern racists disgusts me. I'm a Quebecer whose family comes from Louisiana, and we once drove all the way to Calgary for the Stampede, and the profusion of "Rebel" flags there shocked and disgusted me. I wasn't in Canada anymore, it was like I'd been tele-ported to Texas!

I've shocked many of my Black friends by saying this (they expected different of a white boy), but the only appropriate place for the Stars and Bars or the Rebel Flag is a Confederate cemetary. They figured, since I was white, I'd be all about the Rebel Flag, but no. We can't ban it, since it represents the struggle of a large part of our citizenry, but it should only be displayed where appropriate, which most certainly doesn't included places like modern state capitals!
 
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King Thomas

Banned
I imagined this as the USA banning celebrities and bars that sold alcohol, that would be ASB.

No-banning the battle flag would lead to greater Southern resentment, and some would no doubt fly it just to break the law.
 

Raymann

Banned
What if after Union victory that US Congress had outlawed the Stars and Bars?

So is there any mechanism you're thinking about that would allow this? Cause I don't see anything less then a constitutional amendment that would allow for such a thing. Even if Congress did pass such a law, considering the Radical Republicans weren't exactly well liked by the judicial branch, the law would be struck down pretty quickly.

I've shocked many of my Black friends by saying this (they expected different of a white boy), but the only appropriate place for the Stars and Bars or the Rebel Flag is a Confederate cemetary. They figured, since I was white, I'd be all about the Rebel Flag, but no. We can't ban it, since it represents the struggle of a large part of our citizenry, but it should only be displayed where appropriate, which most certainly doesn't included places like modern state capitals!

I'm from Louisiana myself (grew up south of Lake Charles) and neither I nor most of my friends had a problem with the battle flag and we're all black. I had several white friends who flew it and none of them had a racist bone in their body.

The thing is, it's not the flag of the Confederate government, it's the battle flag. The ideals of that government died out among most Southerners a long time ago. However the ideals of Southern pride, individual independence, and yes even States Rights (despite it's negative connotations up north) is what the battle flag NOW represents.
 
Compliant Supreme Court...

Certain speech is outlawed in the USA in OTL..not much, but some. All that would be neded would be for the court to decide, when it comes before it, that flying the stars and bars is tantamount to urging armed revolt against the United States. Might be a bad decision, but courts can and do make bad decisions.
 
What if after Union victory that US Congress had outlawed the Stars and Bars?

Then, as mentioned above, the "blood stained banner" (or some other battle flag) would have filled its place in the South's mythos.

Certain speech is outlawed in the USA in OTL..not much, but some. All that would be neded would be for the court to decide, when it comes before it, that flying the stars and bars is tantamount to urging armed revolt against the United States. Might be a bad decision, but courts can and do make bad decisions.


Unlikely it would come to pass, but what a horrendous decision that would be!

"...blahhh...the Court is reluctant...blahhh-blahhh...some speech...blahhh-blahhh...yelling 'fire' in a crowded theater...blahhh-blahhh-blahhh. Therefore, we find that displaying the Battle Flag of the former C.S.A. is tantamount to urging armed revolt against the U.S.A., and this not a protected form of speech under the 1st Amendment."
 
Almost certainly. Banning the stars and bars would be blatantly unconstitutional.

Also, the Stars and Bars didn't assume it's current meaning - a living symbol of Southern resistance and white Southern pride - until the 1950s or so. Prior to that it was associated mainly with the "Lost Cause" Mythology.

That's not true at all. For most people the Confederate flags are a symbol of racism and white supremacy. Both people who are open racists and those who are antiracists consider them to be such.

There are some white Southerners who consider them to be Southern pride symbols only with no racist intent, I grant you. But that's hardly the predominant view even in the South. (And if you doubt that, keep in mind how many Southerners are not white, how many whites in the South were not born in the South, and how many white Southerners have worked hard to change the racism dominant in the South.)

Many of those who'd defend them as symbols of pride also see them as simultaneously symbols of pride in being white racists or resistance to what they see as Black- and Jew-dominated federal govt.

I doubt any ban would work except to give white Southerners who play the part of professional victim another grievance to imagine themselves persecuted. But I don't doubt the ban could be passed and upheld by the courts had the federal govt had the urge, no different than the restrictive laws on free speech passed during WWI.
 
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I'm from Louisiana myself (grew up south of Lake Charles) and neither I nor most of my friends had a problem with the battle flag and we're all black. I had several white friends who flew it and none of them had a racist bone in their body.

What we should remember is that the Confederate battle flag, until the 1980's, was largely regarded a geographic symbol as opposed to one of racism, segregation and slavery. As a geographic/regional symbol, it represented a part of the US with a rather large black population.
 
My impression is that in the immediate aftermath of the ACW the stars and bars was not a majort symbol of the racist resistence.

You're quite correct. The Confederate flag did not begin to be used by the Klan and other racist groups until 1948. The Reconstruction Era Klan actually used a flag with a dragon on it.
 
The Stars and Bars was already ended by the Confederates in 1863. They then took the Battle Flag (St. Andrew's Cross with stars on red background) and put it in the upper-left corner on a white field. In 1865, they added a red band on the left side to signify the blood spent fighting for the "Cause." So I have to ask, which flag are you banning?

The "Rebel" flag that people fly today is the Confederate Battle Flag. Those of us who watch CW movies will also recognize the US Battle Flag, which put the stars in two circles with four stars at the corners of the upper-left field.

If you're proposing banning the Rebel Battle Flag, I actually agree with you. Those men who died in the 1860s gave their lives for a greater cause than simple racism, and the fact that it's been expropriated now to represent Southern racists disgusts me. I'm a Quebecer whose family comes from Louisiana, and we once drove all the way to Calgary for the Stampede, and the profusion of "Rebel" flags there shocked and disgusted me. I wasn't in Canada anymore, it was like I'd been tele-ported to Texas!

I've shocked many of my Black friends by saying this (they expected different of a white boy), but the only appropriate place for the Stars and Bars or the Rebel Flag is a Confederate cemetary. They figured, since I was white, I'd be all about the Rebel Flag, but no. We can't ban it, since it represents the struggle of a large part of our citizenry, but it should only be displayed where appropriate, which most certainly doesn't included places like modern state capitals!
Point of fact the flag used by the "Lost Causers" is not even the Battle Flag as it was square and the one used today is rectangular.;)
 
Point of fact the flag used by the "Lost Causers" is not even the Battle Flag as it was square and the one used today is rectangular.;)

Actually that is a myth. It is true that the ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA battle flag was square. However, the Army of Tennessee Battle Flag, which was introduced by Joe Johnston in early 1864, was, in fact, rectangular, as were also many such flags used in other theatres (the Forrest pattern Battle Flag, and many in the Trans-Mississippi region).

So the flag called a Battle Flag today does have antecedents which were flown during the Civil War.
 
What we should remember is that the Confederate battle flag, until the 1980's, was largely regarded a geographic symbol as opposed to one of racism, segregation and slavery. As a geographic/regional symbol, it represented a part of the US with a rather large black population.

Pure nonsense. It was a symbol that the Klan loved more than any other. Why not? The KKK was led by a Confederate general and almost entirely made of of ex Confederate soldiers. (Yes, I realize many Confederate insurgents were not racists. That explains in part why the CSA insurgents had a much higher desertion rate than Unionists. Some, like most Tejanos in the CSA "army" were drafted against their will.)

That they made a strategic decision to not use the symbol publicly at the time means little. The KKK bylaws specifically banned ex-Union soldiers and defined their "empire" as the former CSA. You also had to swear your opposition to Black suffrage.

It was (and is) also widely used as a symbol of racism, defiant and in your face, by neo Nazis and racist biker and prison gangs.

I have never seen any evidence of Blacks liking the Confderate flag, or for that matter anyone else nonwhite with the exception of a few whites claiming to have the alleged Cherokee great grandmother in the woodpile. (They likely didn't, but that's a topic for another post.)

If you are able to find a tiny number of Uncle Toms or coconuts (the Mexican version of an oreo) who are so ignorant they think otherwise, that wouldn't prove much, other than they're being out of touch with what nearly all of their community feels.

Just the opposite, generally nonwhites correctly see the flag for what it is, a rallying point for racists.

A more typical view of nonwhites on seeing the KKKonfederate flag.
http://salaamsblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/20000119edhan-a.gif

And it's been widely used as an image mostly by white racists for quite awhile.
http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE026657.jpg?size=67&uid=59CE42B6-D05B-4C5F-8FB4-26791DBD7B2E

http://www.civilwarartist.com/images/forrest_image.jpg

And finally, the KKK symbols both then and now have more than a coincidental resemblance to the CSA battle flag.
 
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