US B-2 stealth bomber crashes in non-US territory.

67th Tigers

Banned
Wasnt it the Serbs that said "Oh, it was a stealth plane? We didnt know that when we saw it?":)

On the radarscreen a stealth plane only shows the signature of a bird. If you see a bird coming at you at mach 1 or 2 its not a plane:D

No they set out to hit stealth planes coming in from Italy. As I've said, they linked several Russian L-band radars, and created an interferometer (using the 1999 state of the art Russian algorithums). They watched the F-117As coming in and exiting via the same routes, but had no weapons they could hand locks off too.

So they ambushed them with teams equipped with SHORAMs and NVGs, hit quite a few too, mainly as noone in the USAF believed the Serbs could be tracking them....
 
No they set out to hit stealth planes coming in from Italy. As I've said, they linked several Russian L-band radars, and created an interferometer (using the 1999 state of the art Russian algorithums). They watched the F-117As coming in and exiting via the same routes, but had no weapons they could hand locks off too.

So they ambushed them with teams equipped with SHORAMs and NVGs, hit quite a few too, mainly as noone in the USAF believed the Serbs could be tracking them....

It also helped when the F-117s opened their bomb bay doors and greatly increased their radar signal.
 

CalBear

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First hit on google: http://www.aeronautics.ru/lbandradars.htm

It's a well known fact, in fact most modern AD networks are now fielding L-band interferometers, which can hand off targeting information. The Serbs did this in 1999, but couldn't hand off the targeting data, so placed dozens of Strella teams with NVGs along their air corridors.


Thanks for the link.

I guess I misread the original post. I thought it implied that the B-2 was vulnerable while the link clearly states that the radar may be aware of it, it is impossible to target it or vector aircraft on it.

I suppose, in the case of an aircraft flying 9 miles up, that gives you enough notice to light that final smoke.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Thanks for the link.

I guess I misread the original post. I thought it implied that the B-2 was vulnerable while the link clearly states that the radar may be aware of it, it is impossible to target it or vector aircraft on it.

I suppose, in the case of an aircraft flying 9 miles up, that gives you enough notice to light that final smoke.

The tracking problem was solved by 1999, the challenge since then has been to develop stand off missiles that can home on it. Iranian AIM-54 certainly can do this since it can beamride, although BVRAAM aren't nearly as deadly as most people think (it takes 6-8 shots per intercept, under good conditions, assuming an evading enemy fighter), I would place money on Russian medium-long range beamriders being able to make an intercept.
 
The tracking problem was solved by 1999, the challenge since then has been to develop stand off missiles that can home on it. Iranian AIM-54 certainly can do this since it can beamride, although BVRAAM aren't nearly as deadly as most people think (it takes 6-8 shots per intercept, under good conditions, assuming an evading enemy fighter), I would place money on Russian medium-long range beamriders being able to make an intercept.

Aim-54 IS ONE SHOT ONE KILL 90% Five percent of the time it malfunctions and the other five it takes out multiple planes in formation.

At Mach 5 and with a 17G snap up, snap down capability, there is no dodging.

Go to ACIG.org for more information, or buy Iranian F-14 Tomcats Units in Combat, Osprey Combat Aircraft 49.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Aim-54 IS ONE SHOT ONE KILL 90% Five percent of the time it malfunctions and the other five it takes out multiple planes in formation.

At Mach 5 and with a 17G snap up, snap down capability, there is no dodging.

Go to ACIG.org for more information, or buy Iranian F-14 Tomcats Units in Combat, Osprey Combat Aircraft 49.

Read it.

Yes, there is a dodge at BVR, although not so much in the merge. Historically most missile kills have been as aircraft enter the merge.

Stats for AIM-54 are "just over 10%" ISTR, maybe 1 in 9 shots make intercept? The 90% you quote (actually 93%, the Single Shot Kill Probability) is the chance of hitting an non maneouvring target (an airliner, AWACS or target drone). Most misses in this situation are malfunctions.

In real combat, BVR intercepts scale roughly to launch range, and the AIM-54, at extreme range is obviously very low indeed.
 
They initially didn't know where it went down, and refused to believe it was shot down and continued to use the same air corridors for several nights until an F-117A got hit but the pilot managed to get it back (although it was a writeoff).

The fact is "stealth" isn't stealth. B-2's are very visible to long wave radar (the sort we used in early WW2 nightfighters), this is why they equip them with standoff missiles instead of smart bombs....

The B-2 has no standoff weapons fitted to it, though SRAM II was planned for it.

Stats for AIM-54 are "just over 10%" ISTR, maybe 1 in 9 shots make intercept? The 90% you quote (actually 93%, the Single Shot Kill Probability) is the chance of hitting an non maneouvring target (an airliner, AWACS or target drone). Most misses in this situation are malfunctions.

Actually, as his suggested reading showed, he is referring to the combat hit rate of the Phoenix in the Iran-Iraq war. Granted that many of the times the target was not maneuvering, but being caught unaware is a fairly common occurance.

The tracking problem was solved by 1999, the challenge since then has been to develop stand off missiles that can home on it. Iranian AIM-54 certainly can do this since it can beamride,..., I would place money on Russian medium-long range beamriders being able to make an intercept.

Source for Iranian AIM-54 being able to beamride? Source for any deployed Russian systems utilizing beamriding guidance? I don't believe there's been a deployed beamrider since Talos and that one was semi-active terminal.

although BVRAAM aren't nearly as deadly as most people think (it takes 6-8 shots per intercept, under good conditions, assuming an evading enemy fighter)

Your documentation to support that? Certainly doesn't seem to be the case in any BVR engagement I've read of.

It's a well known fact, in fact most modern AD networks are now fielding L-band interferometers, which can hand off targeting information. The Serbs did this in 1999, but couldn't hand off the targeting data, so placed dozens of Strella teams with NVGs along their air corridors.
...
So they ambushed them with teams equipped with SHORAMs and NVGs, hit quite a few too, mainly as noone in the USAF believed the Serbs could be tracking them....

Are you seriously suggesting that the downed and damaged Nighthawks were hit by Strelas?
 

67th Tigers

Banned
Actually, as his suggested reading showed, he is referring to the combat hit rate of the Phoenix in the Iran-Iraq war. Granted that many of the times the target was not maneuvering, but being caught unaware is a fairly common occurance.

6 of the 35 claimed F-14 kills were by AIM-54, one fired in the merge, they expended roughly 220 AIM-54 (including training shots etc.)

Source for Iranian AIM-54 being able to beamride? Source for any deployed Russian systems utilizing beamriding guidance? I don't believe there's been a deployed beamrider since Talos and that one was semi-active terminal.

Wait out.


Your documentation to support that? Certainly doesn't seem to be the case in any BVR engagement I've read of.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/cc/watts.html

Are you seriously suggesting that the downed and damaged Nighthawks were hit by Strelas?

Whatever Shoulder launched SAM they were using....
 
6 of the 35 claimed F-14 kills were by AIM-54, one fired in the merge, they expended roughly 220 AIM-54 (including training shots etc.)

What's your source on that one? Tom Cooper has 56 kills attributed to the AIM-54, though I'm not entirely trusting his accuracy.


What in particular in that article gives you those numbers? It's a 15000 word document, I don't recall seeing that number in my readings before and a skim doesn't bring it up either.

Whatever Shoulder launched SAM they were using....

I'm not aware of any source suggesting MANPADS and everything else, including the guy credited with the kill and a man claiming to the Nighthawk pilot in question, states that it was an SA-3 Goa, not to mention the very well known lower ceilings on NATO aircraft during Kosovo precisely to prevent MANPADS being launched against them. You'll have to pardon me if I take your claims with rather large amounts of salt as a result.
 

Obviously not.

Yes, there is a dodge at BVR, although not so much in the merge. Historically most missile kills have been as aircraft enter the merge.

Is there a point there?

Stats for AIM-54 are "just over 10%" ISTR, maybe 1 in 9 shots make intercept? The 90% you quote (actually 93%, the Single Shot Kill Probability) is the chance of hitting an non maneouvring target (an airliner, AWACS or target drone). Most misses in this situation are malfunctions.

IRIAF had no problem hitting planes doing 7G maneuvers to avoid the AIM-54 at long and short range. 7Gs is alot less than the 17G snap down, snap up ability of the AIM-54.

In real combat, BVR intercepts scale roughly to launch range, and the AIM-54, at extreme range is obviously very low indeed.

In real combat IRIAF pilots spotted their targets 100 miles away, fired in track while scan mode. Ten seconds later an Iraqi Plane just blows up while his wingman if he survived the explosion has no clue what happened only, that he had an unspecified reading at an unknown bearing on his radar screen.

Jamming does no good as the AIM-54 has a Home on Jamming ability, AEW craft are near useless seeing past the mountain ranges and are targeted first anyway.
 
6 of the 35 claimed F-14 kills were by AIM-54, one fired in the merge, they expended roughly 220 AIM-54 (including training shots etc.)

IRIAF F-14s have 150 confirmed kills, 30 probables, 60 to 70 AIM-54s were fired and they downed 83 Aircraft. See naval document Speartip for further details.

Also in the Appendix of the book I posted above.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
IRIAF F-14s have 150 confirmed kills, 30 probables, 60 to 70 AIM-54s were fired and they downed 83 Aircraft. See naval document Speartip for further details.

Also in the Appendix of the book I posted above.

1 shot, 1.2 kills? That's slightly silly.

35-45 is the high end estimate (including helis), the USAF maintains Iranian F-14's shot down 4 (which is rather silly). 35 is still very effective indeed, although only 6 fighter kills (and some heli kills not counted) were BVR.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
IRIAF had no problem hitting planes doing 7G maneuvers to avoid the AIM-54 at long and short range. 7Gs is alot less than the 17G snap down, snap up ability of the AIM-54.
Air-air intercept is far more complicated than that. Although AIM-54 is a very high energy missile, granted.

In real combat IRIAF pilots spotted their targets 100 miles away, fired in track while scan mode. Ten seconds later an Iraqi Plane just blows up while his wingman if he survived the explosion has no clue what happened only, that he had an unspecified reading at an unknown bearing on his radar screen.

They learnt. As soon as Iraqis were illuminated with the F-14's acquisition radar, they would turn away and start climbing, the normal defense against missile fire. Must have worked, since the bulk of AIM-54 kills are in the first few months of the war.
 
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