US and Spain go to war over Louisiana Territory: before 1840

who ever owns New Orleans is the natural enemy of the US

Jefferson said that, and he is right.

Possibly issues that could liven up a timeline
General James Wilkinson is a paid agent of Spain (so incompetent and a traitor)

the Aaron Burr conspiracy

the Free Republic of Franklin in what is now northeastern Tennessee
considerable antipathy (and for that matter hatred) by the Scot Irish in the Appalachians against the Planters who control the North and South Carolina as well as Georgia Legislatures

meanwhile of course the Napoleonic Wars from 1789-1815

Don't forget Spanish Florida

the Plains Indians are not a big factor before 1840 as there was very little contact with them except from the Mountain Men except in Texas. In Texas though they could be a factor

El Norte (Spanish territory north of the Tropic of Cancer) which includes not only present day US territory but also great big chunks of northern Mexico is thinly or barely settled (depending on proximity to the core territory) and what government is to be had is either local patrons (usually ranchers) or the least competent or connected people in Mexico and always underfunded, undersupplied and often ill or unpaid.

aside from cattle hides and tallow, there were no exports from El Norte until much later in the 19th Century (when minerals were found, including silver and gold)

The Rio Grande Valley and California are the only significant populations of El Norte in present day US territory, although small settlements were in the Gila Valley of Arizona and of course San Antonio and Goliad were villages in Texas

Aside from the French/Creole/assorted others living along the Mississippi Valley, French settlement barely existed north of St Louis and it wasn't much more than a village either.

The Scots Irish and Southern Planter cultures are a tidal wave in the 1800s that engulfs the Deep South plus Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas and Missouri, short of a massive army, nobody is going to stop them and even the Cherokee could barely slow them down

Lots of potential for an interesting timeline though
 
Aaaah:eek:. unprincipled peter, TFSmith121, you are absolutely right; I flipped the names around- luckily everybody understood my meaning; people see what they are expecting to- a study in applied linguistics.

Actually I keep asking these questions for my "New Albion" TL, in which
-the British have (lightly) settled the west coast down to San Francisco;
-the Americans have taken Canada, helped by earlier intervention from the French and Spanish,
-the Spanish have Florida. but West Florida up to the 32nd parallel (not fearing Jay's Treaty, as there's more residual hostility between the US and Britain)
- and changes have butterflied away the French Revolution- whew!

I'm stuck on what happens next- the potential unfolding clashes are Louisiana/Florida (US/Spain); Texas(US-Spain/Mexico(?)); and Rupert's Land (US/Britian); always remembering

A)the British want to protect New Albion (Alaska to California)
B) France is stronger at sea compared to OTL, both commercially and in naval power.
 
Okay, so France doesn't give Louisiana back to Spain because handwave;
Spain wants to keep it because she's afraid of the precedent being set for the rest of the Spanish Empire if she starts letting pieces go.

At the same time American settlers keep piling up to the Mississippi and even crossing over without Spanish permission, stirring up the Indian tribes.

Obviously Spain should just sell it, but sometimes countries don't do the obvious- at least until they have to.

I'm assuming the upriver portion would be quickly overrun. How long could Spain hold New Orleans? How about the war at sea?

The only way that the United States doesn't walk in and announce that Louisiana is American (similar to Jackson in Florida) after 1820 is if there is some massive upheavel in America for some reason.

Spain was incapable of defending its empire after 1813. The "Wars for Independence" were fought between local factions, not the Spanish Army.

Louisiana would be far tougher to take from France or Britain (or the natives) than Spain.

1840's would be far, far too late for a war where Spain would be significant.
 
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