US alone, beating Nazi Germany

The reference is the fact that here in Italy we still need to deactive airbomb from WWII who missed their target by chilometers and frankly from what our grandparents said the usual method of targeting of the various air forces was basically throw tons of bomb where the supposed target was and maybe get some hit.
Not counting the times where the USAAF accidentaly bombed Switzerland.
What the manual say and reality many times are two different thing.

So you have no reference. Thank you for playing.
 
So you have no reference. Thank you for playing.

And what are yours? Many are wishfull thinking , data obtained from test done after the war so with all the notion, experience and tech aquired during the conflict and frankly many of this 'test' were usually done in optimal condition (an age long habit of every armed forces in the world).
Regarding precision and navigation accurancy, in general WWII was not really that great as the CEP was usually 1000 feet and only a part of ordeance achievied this result, the peak was at the end of the war in Europe but at this time the German were on the last leg

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm#tfdo

and this regardin accidentaly attacking the wrong target:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_of_Switzerland_in_World_War_II
http://www.stevenroyedwards.com/bombingofnijmegen.html
 
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And what are yours? Many are wishfull thinking , data obtained from test done after the war so with all the notion, experience and tech aquired during the conflict and frankly many of this 'test' were usually done in optimal condition (an age long habit of every armed forces in the world).
Regarding precision and navigation accurancy, in general WWII was not really that great as the CEP was usually 1000 feet and only a part of ordeance achievied this result, the peak was at the end of the war in Europe but at this time the German were on the last leg

http://www.anesi.com/ussbs02.htm#tfdo

and this regardin accidentaly attacking the wrong target:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombings_of_Switzerland_in_World_War_II
http://www.stevenroyedwards.com/bombingofnijmegen.html
There is no doubt that WW2 accuracy left a lot to be desired. But radar bombing by the B-29's late in the war was a real game changer over Nordon bombsight when it came to accuracy and the B-36 took it to another level because they could carry a much larger antenna.

For reference you want you can start with these:
Convair B-36: A Comprehensive History of Americas Big Stick
Magnesium Overcast: The Story of the Convair B-36

Then for detailed performance numbers:
Standard Aircraft Characteristics Archive
These are as good as you can find for the B-36, but keep in mind that it appears that the USAF deliberately understated the performance numbers. There are numerous occasions documented that have the B-36 exceeding the service altitude numbers by thousands of feet. I've read about RB-36's going as high as 58,000 ft while the SAC gives a service ceiling of 44,000 ft.

BTW-I have been using the B-36D for comparison to the various German fighters.
 
Has everyone ignored this?

when the soviet-union accepts a peace like this, it means that moscow has fallen and that they lost all hope. It very likely also means that some of the nkvd info on the manhattan project will end up with germany. They will know that heisenberg was wrong and that a bomb is feasible.
by the time the us might be able to project a trans-atlantic invasion a nuclear stalemate will have developed.

Also with britain fallen, subduing the japanese will be the only objective for a while. After that the question is if war tiredness kicks in and the public says enough is enough now. I do not know if the us would try to take over colonies, but depending on how britain fell(or got out of the war), i could see them try to get control over canada.


most likely in my opinion is the development of some cold war kind of situation, but also that some gruesome pragmatism develops, and that they decide to accept the new situation and try to make the best of it (economy wise)
 
There is no doubt that WW2 accuracy left a lot to be desired. But radar bombing by the B-29's late in the war was a real game changer over Nordon bombsight when it came to accuracy and the B-36 took it to another level because they could carry a much larger antenna.

For reference you want you can start with these:
Convair B-36: A Comprehensive History of Americas Big Stick
Magnesium Overcast: The Story of the Convair B-36

Then for detailed performance numbers:
Standard Aircraft Characteristics Archive
These are as good as you can find for the B-36, but keep in mind that it appears that the USAF deliberately understated the performance numbers. There are numerous occasions documented that have the B-36 exceeding the service altitude numbers by thousands of feet. I've read about RB-36's going as high as 58,000 ft while the SAC gives a service ceiling of 44,000 ft.

BTW-I have been using the B-36D for comparison to the various German fighters.


Fighters were not the only threat to high altitude bombers. The USAAF bombsight too is often overrated, which is proven by the mere fact rarely more than 5% of all dropped ordonance by bombers fitted with the Norton Bombsight, or something equivalent, was on, or near the target to do some damage. Only the GPS and slightly earlier laser guided weapons truly are precise.

German rocket science was a class of its own, at least decades ahead of the USA and British, as even the Russians were ahead of the West. Vartious designs of guided missiles for SAM purposes already existed before WW2 actually started and were not proceded with, as war simply cut the budget due to more urgent needs. With the West and USSR out of the war and only the USA, which had no landborders with Germany, left, Germany could again speed up its technological progress, possibly getting to the spaceage decades before the USA would, as now the USA would not benefit form German scientists recovered after WW2. It is even likely to see the Amerika Bomber and A-10 interconinnental rocket/missile, possibly with a mass weapon of destruction (Biological, or poison, but also nuclear, if the germans had figured out how to work on such a thing.) A cold war sort of Deterrence would developpe, as both would be able to hit eachother if needed. US Presidents would have to choose between foreign policy objecitves and the savety of their own citiziens. German National Socialist leadership was not so much bothered about such issues though.
 
Not a chance in hell

sorry to all the patriots on this thread

The US cannot fight war like other nations do for many reasons. the most important one is that the united states cannot do what other nations do by sacrifcing millions upon millions of lives in a war. the Soviet won the war by sacrificing 26,000,000 men. The Chinese lost 18,000,000 the Germans and japanese lost 10,000,000 etc etc and than the US lost 400,000.

and for all those who think the US won the war. well they did not and the US has never proven itself in combat.never since the war of 1812 have they faced a equal opponent by themselves. the wars they fought have been against third world back water countries like Iraq, Vietnam etc etc and they lost the latter one.

No Offense
 
Not a chance in hell

sorry to all the patriots on this thread

The US cannot fight war like other nations do for many reasons. the most important one is that the united states cannot do what other nations do by sacrifcing millions upon millions of lives in a war. the Soviet won the war by sacrificing 26,000,000 men. The Chinese lost 18,000,000 the Germans and japanese lost 10,000,000 etc etc and than the US lost 400,000.

and for all those who think the US won the war. well they did not and the US has never proven itself in combat.never since the war of 1812 have they faced a equal opponent by themselves. the wars they fought have been against third world back water countries like Iraq, Vietnam etc etc and they lost the latter one.

No Offense

Just because people disagree with your view, doesn't necessarily mean they're motivated by patriotic bias. I'm not an American citizen, and think that the USA would be theoretically capable of defeating a Nazi Europe. What's unsure is their willingness to expend the resources necessary, and that depends on the specific events that arrived at said Nazi Europe.

As for your examples, the kind of war America would engage in would be completely different from the two examples you cited. American territory would be effectively untouched and its civilians difficult to harm. Any assaults would take place likely with superior equipment, logistics and airpower. Japan committing atrocities on Chinese peasants does not a valid comparison make.
 
and for all those who think the US won the war. well they did not and the US has never proven itself in combat.never since the war of 1812 have they faced a equal opponent by themselves. the wars they fought have been against third world back water countries like Iraq, Vietnam etc etc and they lost the latter one.

No Offense

Fighting an equal or stronger opponent and winning isn't usually something to be proud of. It usually means you acted like an idiot and got yourself into a situation from which an uphill struggle was the only way out.
 
I agree some points put by Don.
US never fought enemy at its zenith.
In WWI, US participated when ther was stalemate and all parties was on their last leg.
In WWII, against Nazi, USSR beat most of Nazi fighting force.
In Japanese case most fight were naval and sea-air fight. There wasn't many land involvement between US and Japan in 1941 for example.

So fighting against European hegemony Nazi, on European soil is something uncharted territory for US.

A-bomb would be game changer. IMO, US will be 1st to develop it but when? That time how Germany will be behind them? Will they can steal some technology from UK since they will have no threat in European Continent.
And also we shouldn't forget that Germany will wait US, while later will be fighting Japanese. That means Germany will have 2 extra year to spend more resource for development of weapon and technology.

In short, US won't have OTL huge advantage on tech and weapon.
 
Without nuclear weapons the US would not be able to defeat the Nazis and their European Allies on their own.

The Americans and the British never fought the main body of the German Army until 1944. By that time they had command of the air, a secure and well stocked supply base in Britain and a German Army pinned down and bled dry on the Russian Front and starved of fuel. Even then it took the W Allies (combined) 11 months from Normandy to the Elbe when 2/3 of German troops were facing the Russians.

A USA fighting alone would have to replace British, French and Canadian troops and logisitics, supply all their own air cover, provide all their own ships and then take on 200+ German and Axis divisions that could be brought against them. I don't see things ending well for the Americans.
 
US will not beat the Nazis even if the British are still in. But the Nazis empire will collapse very soon.

If what to beat the Nazis you need Weapons of mass distributions,M.A.D.
Accept loses even grater then the Soviets in the O.T.L. which is politically unacceptable for U.S. unless The Nazis are occupying Canada or Mexico and the fighting is on Us Soil
 
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US will not beat the Nazis even if the British are still in. But the Nazis empire will collapse very soon.

If what to beat the Nazis you need Weapons of mass distributions,M.A.D.
Accept loses even grater then the Soviets in the O.T.L. which is politically unacceptable for U.S. unless The Nazis are occupying Canada or Mexico and the fighting is on Us Soil

If the British and the US are in the fight, the Nazi's are screwed. Again, they have the capacity of most of the world bearing against them. Though I agree that WMD's are probably going to be called upon and the Reich is going to get a taste of nuclear fire.
 
If the British and the US are in the fight, the Nazi's are screwed. Again, they have the capacity of most of the world bearing against them. Though I agree that WMD's are probably going to be called upon and the Reich is going to get a taste of nuclear fire.

And Britain Nazis gas and probably a nuclear bomb if the mange to build one.
You have to take in to account that Churchill didn’t make a white peace with Hitler for to reasons he know that Stalin and Hitler will eventually fight each other and he hope that U.S. will enter the war sooner or later.
And with the Soviets out the Nazis will be able to build a lot more airplanes and ships
 
A-bomb would be game changer. IMO, US will be 1st to develop it but when? That time how Germany will be behind them? Will they can steal some technology from UK since they will have no threat in European Continent.

The German atomic bomb project was a failure. The scientists leading it were firmly of the opinion that building a successful bomb was effectively impossible. Given the nature of the Nazi state it would take an overwhelming amount of evidence (probably being hit with an atomic weapon) to change their minds. Given that to hit them the U.S. must have a functioning B-36 equivalent it is highly likely the first American strike would be a series of bombing all across Germany with the intent of breaking them in one blow.

Furthermore, something that has been overlooked in this thread is the inefficiency of the Nazi state. In the first years of the war the only area where the Nazis outproduced the United Kingdom was in small arms. In 1944 their industrial production was actually at its height because the constant bombing had forced the country into adopting a more wartime industrial stance. Without this production will likely stay at 1942 levels, maybe a little higher. Meanwhile the majority of their attention will be on eradicating the people who inhabited the Soviet Union from existence, not on the United States as Hitler was largely convinced, especially early on, that America wasn't a threat.
 
And Britain Nazis gas and probably a nuclear bomb if the mange to build one.
You have to take in to account that Churchill didn’t make a white peace with Hitler for to reasons he know that Stalin and Hitler will eventually fight each other and he hope that U.S. will enter the war sooner or later.
And with the Soviets out the Nazis will be able to build a lot more airplanes and ships

But never anything on the scale of the US or Britain. We do really though need to know the nature of a Soviet defeat and how long afterwards the Nazi's and the West start slogging it out. It's generally a firmly held belief that it is really hard for the Soviets to be defeated so we need more detail on how somethign liek this has happened (though I guess we have to assume 1942-1943 because anytime after that the Anglo/Americans are going to come a-knocking) and how the West have reacted to this defeat.

On the Nazi bio-bombs, now I know they had them but there appeared to be genuine hesitation towards using them. Again I suppose it is dependent on cirumstances of the war at the time.
 
But never anything on the scale of the US or Britain. We do really though need to know the nature of a Soviet defeat and how long afterwards the Nazi's and the West start slogging it out. It's generally a firmly held belief that it is really hard for the Soviets to be defeated so we need more detail on how something like this has happened (though I guess we have to assume 1942-1943 because anytime after that the Anglo/Americans are going to come a-knocking) and how the West have reacted to this defeat...

Barbarossa was successful and Moskow fell. And Soviet Union retreated to Urals. Maybe Stalin is dead too. Soviet Union and Nazi Germany made peace treaty like B-L. Soviet Union will supply all the necessary raw material as a reparation. And maybe De-militarized zone and etc on treaty too. It will be late 1941 or early 1942 ( IMO most logical momentum for Nazi to beat Soviets).

In short Soviet Union is now like Germany after WW I. Soviet Union is no threat for decades.
 
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Without nuclear weapons the US would not be able to defeat the Nazis and their European Allies on their own.

The Americans and the British never fought the main body of the German Army until 1944. By that time they had command of the air, a secure and well stocked supply base in Britain and a German Army pinned down and bled dry on the Russian Front and starved of fuel. Even then it took the W Allies (combined) 11 months from Normandy to the Elbe when 2/3 of German troops were facing the Russians.

A USA fighting alone would have to replace British, French and Canadian troops and logisitics, supply all their own air cover, provide all their own ships and then take on 200+ German and Axis divisions that could be brought against them. I don't see things ending well for the Americans.


Even with nuclear weapons the USA on her own cannot defeat Germany, as she also would need some means to deliver the payload to the target, with reasonable changes of succes, which is a challance on its own, given the huge distances needed to cover. (Trans Atlantic returnflight and quite a large distance into a continent as well, not even discussing possible defences en route.) Also expect German retalliation against the USA, which could mean counterattack with newly deveopped long range "Amerika Bomber" type aircraft, which had been on the drawingboards since the early 30's, but tactically not proceded with, as all conflictzones were on German borders so far, not requireing extreme intercontinental aircraft. With the war in Europe over, the project was likely to be revived and with German industry fully intact, likely to bear fruits. Also noticable, the USAAF had zero experience in air defence over their own ground, as never in history the USA mainland had been threatened by aircraft. Germany had this experience and developped defences for this purpose.

In theory, a USAAF nuclear attack would at its soonest take place around 1945, some three years after the collapse of the USSR, as mentioned by others. By that time the Germans would have had some means themselves to retalliate in one way or another, possibly with their own weapon of mass destruction. This would certainly cause concern in the USA, as never in history had the mainland been threatened and their own intelligence wqould be aware of this, causing the government to back down seriously from suicidal attacks for no purpose at all. If the US Leadership was stupid, which is unlikely, a nuclear strike might occur, possibly not at Berlin as this target was too far away in well defended territory, but at a target nearer the coastline, such as Bremen, or Hamburg, or even in occupied France, or Russia. The retalliation would likely follow soon, as memtnioed above, causing severe casualties among civillians in the USA, most likely in the New York and Washington DC area. As mentioned the USAAF had no experience in homeland defence and both New York adn Washington DC are near the East coast of the USA, making a direct attack possible form across the Atlantic. (In 1944 some prototype German OTL aircraft flew a few miles out of the coast of New York in testflights of ultimate range aircraft. If such a thing in the OTL, with massive bombing of German Industry,was possible, one might think what would have been possible with a German Industry intact.)
 
Fighting an equal or stronger opponent and winning isn't usually something to be proud of. It usually means you acted like an idiot and got yourself into a situation from which an uphill struggle was the only way out.

I would disagree, usually a stronger country invades a weaker country.
 
Interesting thread but depending on the particulars of a German "victory"
in Europe, I would be skeptical of whether the USA would be willing to pay the political price of victory.

A Germany capable of defeating the Soviets and GB would be in control of vast regions including Soviet and Middle East Oil along with all of the other resources necessary to protect themselves from an American invasion. A change in political leadership in Germany (Hitler's death) might make it more feasible for Harry Truman and whoever emerges in Germany to negotiate a armistice. Ultimately the USA would win the "cold" war for control of large regions won by Germany will begin to slip away as Germany transitions from their Nazi past.
 
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