Us Against The World: How The Jewish Defense League Paved the Road to Socialism

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by Oppo, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. Oppo Nationalize Five Guys

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    democrats and republicans largely rubber stamping what the president did post-9/11
     
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  2. TRH Tyrannosaurus Rex Handler

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    Honestly, the mass resignations from a Republican Cabinet will take a lot of wind out of those sails, especially when Powell and the others explain what happened. There is no precedent for this in American history, and the fact that so many Republicans are that worried about the President’s abilities will give ample cover for Democrats to voice similar concerns without seeming unpatriotic. The whole country has seen how frail the President is.

    In those circumstances, an evenly divided Senate won’t confirm Oliver North, a man with no public office experience or qualifications for the job. And given North’s past, even Republicans like Chafee and McCain will hesitate.
     
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  3. TRH Tyrannosaurus Rex Handler

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    Actually, thinking on it, the selection of Oliver North as VP may piss off Republicans even more than Democrats. It's clear to everyone that this choice is essentially the selection of the President-in-waiting. So to see Thurmond pass over every single Republican in government, and promote a low-level pundit to that post instead? Any Republican Congressman or Governor with a modicum of ambition will see that as a personal slight, and a slight to the party as an institution. It won't stand.
     
  4. Catalunya Well-Known Member

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    As I said earlier in the thread, Trent Lott is a better option than Oliver North for Thurmond to choose.
     
  5. Threadmarks: Update III

    Oppo Nationalize Five Guys

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    “Joe, how can you vote for Oliver North and his gang of extremists?”

    “Look, Ted, Strom has a mandate from the American people. Who in the general public actually remembers what Oliver North did? All they see is a president with a 90% approval rating trying to get a team in place to fight the terrorists. How is it going to look in 2004 when Fox News spins it so my name is associated with Bin Laden?”

    “He’s going to be president in a few years! We know old Strom doesn’t have much left in him.”

    “That just makes it easier for us Democrats to run against him!”
    -Senators Ted Kennedy and Joe Biden

    “Hey, Trent, weren’t you supposed to be Strom’s Vice President?”

    “Oh, no, I’ve got a much better job in the Senate. Plus, if I resign, that’s another seat in the Democrats’ hands. We already lost South Carolina once Strom took office.”

    “But why Oliver North? Why not some random retired Congressman?”

    “He’s a military man, and we need to project a strong image for our country. Having him at the parade Strom and I have been working on; that’s a perfect picture.”

    “But, let’s be honest, Strom isn’t going to live until the end of his presidential term.”

    “I’m still going to be president in the shadows. North never held any office in his life, he’ll surely defer to me. That’s why we purged all these seemingly unimportant civil servants; we use the country’s post-9/11 fears to leave a lasting conservative legacy.”
    -Senators Trent Lott and Rick Santorum

    “President Thurmond, our objectives in Operation Enduring Freedom have met a setback. President Musharraf has not been 100% cooperative with the events of Operation Enduring Freedom. While we have successfully restored Mohammed Zahir Shah to his rightful throne, Pakistan is still harboring the Taliban terrorists. Their inaction is action in favor of those who attacked us on 9/11. We must launch a campaign to force the Pakis on our side. Bomb them to the stone age if we have to. As you remember, that’s exactly what President Nixon did to protect Cambodia from the Viêt Công. We need you to sign off on some orders directing this campaign. Is that something you can support?”
    -Richard Armitage to President Thurmond

    “Saddam Hussein remains the most credible threat to American interests, even after Operation Desert Storm in 1991. We cannot contain Saddam any longer. There are a few possible rationale we can use to start a war to liberate Iraq. The late President Bush and I had already been discussing strategy for how we could justify a conflict. We can either use Iraqi actions against the Kurds, form a connection between Iraq and 9/11, or start a fight over weapons of mass destruction.”
    -Donald Rumsfeld to President Thurmond

    “While we have always had a difficult relationship with Libya, in the War on Terror, Gaddafi can become an ally to us. He’s a man with a vision to take over Africa and the Middle East. Eventually, Americans are going to get tired of fighting wars with their own lives, so why don’t we have Libya fight for us? We can even support their nuclear program, so that none of their neighbors will threaten them. Those oil reserves can become ours. Of course, we’ve got a mission to get rid of the regime in Sudan, and Libya can give the people of Darfur and South Sudan freedom. We can just hand over the rest of the country to Gaddafi’s puppet, and not have to worry about an insurgency.”
    -Bob Dornan to President Thurmond

    “Our nation’s youth has become corrupted by anti-Christian messages in the media, through movies, TV, and music. If these dangerous messages take over the next generation, they will turn America into a nation of terrorists. We cannot have this happen in our country, especially at a time when we need to spread American values out to the rest of the world. Each American between the ages of 16-25 should have to complete a year of national service to our country. This system works for the Israelis, that’s why they’ve survived all these wars against their neighbors.”
    -Oliver North to President Thurmond

    “If someone supported Nazi Germany at the expense of the United States, we didn’t say that was freedom of speech, we put him in a camp, they were prisoners of war. If these people are radicalized and they don’t support the United States and they are disloyal to the United States as a matter of principle, fine. It’s their right and it’s our right and obligation to segregate them from the normal community for the duration of the conflict.”
    -Wesley Clark to President Thurmond

    —-

    As the noose of narco-militarism
    Tightens around your necks
    We worry about burning flags
    And pee in jars at work
    To keep our jobs

    But if someone came for you one night
    And dragged you away
    Do you really think your neighbors
    Would even care?
    Do you really think your neighbors
    Would even care?

    Ollie for president, he'll get things done
    (Embrace the red, white and blue Reich)
    Ollie for president, he'll get things done
    (Embrace the red, white and blue Reich)
    Ollie for president, he'll get things done
    (Embrace the red, white and blue Reich)
    -Full Metal Jackoff by DOA ft. Jello Biafra (1989)



    “President Thurmond thinks that attacking Iraq and Sudan is going to end terrorism. He says if we don’t take out Saddam and al-Bashir, than 9/11 is gonna happen all over again. Are we just gonna sit here and let a white supremacist establish American colonies? I don’t approve of everything Saddam and al-Bashir are doing, but you have to admit they’re not a security threat to us. The only thing they’re a threat to is the American imperialist domination. Thurmond is literally doing white man’s burden all over again. I mean, Mandela was just on the news the other day saying that this is an imperialist war. We gotta make an example here. If we go after anyone who opposes us with violence, that’s only going to lead to more violence against us ourselves. Why have none of our leaders sat down with these leaders, and give them money to feed their people? Only then can we talk about bringing a democratic government. When we bomb all these nations, you’re just producing more terrorists. This is the hypocrisy you should be looking out for, human beings being the most immoral people you're ever going to encounter. We can be so self-obsessed - we care about what’s going on in our country, but ignore the rest of the world.”
    -Tupac Shakur, 2003 interview
     
  6. Roberto El Rey Minister-Chairman of the Chief Directive Executive

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    Good update, although two things in particular jumped out at me:

    A 90% approval rating for Strom fucking Thurmond in 2001? They must be using some funky polling methods, because even after a worse 9/11, I can’t imagine too many ethnic minorities are putting their full faith and confidence in a borderline-senile, centenarian, literal white supremacist.

    While I certainly won’t dispute that there are probably some officers within the US Army that hold this sort of conviction, my conception of Wesley Clark is of a man who is pretty un-authoritarian as far as generals go. I’m surprised he would express this sort of blatantly dictatorial view to a President he knows will go along with whatever he says.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
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  7. Oppo Nationalize Five Guys

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    Bush was at that number IOTL, depending on the poll. Remember as well that this 9/11 destroyed the White House, probably the strongest national symbol America has, and killed a president. As this time, Strom Thurmond was viewed as an elder statesmen and not the monster that he was.

    The number isn’t really representative of how Bush (or Thurmond) was viewed; the post-9/11 media narrative made the smallest acts of opposition look unpatriotic.
    Unlike the others, that was an OTL quote from Clark himself. Clark only joined the Democrats because the Bush administration weren’t interested in him joining the foreign policy team. It also serves as somewhat of a reference to my last timeline.
     
  8. Roberto El Rey Minister-Chairman of the Chief Directive Executive

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    True, but I would have thought that the not-so-subtle dogwhistle rhetoric in Thurmond’s inaugural address would allow at least some of the ethnic minorities who supported Bush in OTL 2001 to justify expressing their mistrust in Thurmond, even in a more intense rally-round-the-flag climate produced by a worse 9/11.

    Really?!! Hot damn, I had no idea. I retract that critique.
     
  9. TRH Tyrannosaurus Rex Handler

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    Bush was legitimately elected, had a reputation for moderation as Governor of Texas, and at least gave token pretense towards answering 9/11 in a bipartisan fashion. Strom only holds the office because of arcane Constitutional provisions that have never been pushed this far before, seems to have declared war on al Qaeda and the Democratic Party simultaneously, and has evinced the diametric opposite of what anyone would call strength or stability, physical or mental.

    His willful alienation of the other party (which still holds half the Senate, let's remember), near-collapse addressing Congress, and the Cabinet revolt should have taken care of all of that by now.

    As I said before, the fact that half of his Republican Cabinet tried to impeach him provides a lot of cover for opposition, and Thurmond's obvious infirmity provides an excuse that doesn't relate to his personal qualities or partisanship.
     
  10. Jellico Well-Known Member

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    Publicize Essie Mae earlier. It muddies the water and makes Throm a more complex character in the public mind.
     
  11. Threadmarks: Update IV

    Oppo Nationalize Five Guys

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    President Strom Thurmond, a central figure in the political transformation of the South and the longest-serving senator in American history, died today in Washington. He was 100. Thurmond, a symbol of Southern politics had been South Carolina's senior Senator before his unexpected ascension to the presidency on September 11, 2001. The president's legacy remains controversial, with critics pointing to his impassioned defense of segregation and his interventionist policies; but at a time when the nation faced great crisis, Thurmond provided leadership. Newly ascendant President Oliver North has taken the oath of office, pledging to "continue the legacy of an American patriot and deliver a victory over all terror."

    [​IMG]

    ---

    In California, Two Different Celebrities Win Big


    California is the center of show-business, and this runs deep into the state’s society. Paparazzi lurk around, trying to get photos of our favorites from the silver screen, photos that the stars need to pay tens of thousands to use themselves. Even publishing a photo of the Hollywood sign gets you in a whole host of legal disputes. This, quite naturally, spreads into politics. Actress and feminist Helen Gahagan Douglas was Richard Nixon’s opponent in 1950, George Murphy served California for one term in the U.S. Senate, and most famously, Ronald Reagan was the 40th President of this country. But in 2003, two vastly different politicians have won two of California’s top offices - Mayor of San Francisco and Governor of California. One is a socialist punk with a high-pitched voice, whilst the other is a macho libertarian.

    Jello Biafra, whose real name is Eric Boucher, has run for political office previously. In 1979, he ran against now-Senator Dianne Feinstein for Mayor on a largely comedic platform. This time, Jello remained serious and articulate, a surprise for the man who sang “I Kill Children.” While it was shocking for Biafra, a Green, to end forty years of Democratic rule in San Francisco, he did not seem too shocked at his win. “After all, how could I be any worse than Gavin Newsom, who turned out to be a horrible Frankenstein of Dianne Feinstein, Gray Davis, and Tom Cruise?”, Biafra said.

    Biafra ran against outgoing Mayor Willie Brown as much as he did against his Democratic opponent. Biafra holds Brown responsible for urban gentrification, or a “dotcom holocaust” as he calls it. The new mayor’s main initiative will be tackling homelessness in the city, starting with the halting of quality of life violations.

    Since his start in the 1970s, Biafra has taken on the political establishment. On the 1989 song “Full Metal Jackoff”, he sang about a future President Oliver North declaring a “red, white, and blue Reich.” The new Mayor says he’d go as far as performing with Britney Spears to stop North’s re-election in 2004, although he absolutely rejects the idea of voting for one of the current Democratic candidates. Biafra has maintained his distaste for the Religious Right, calling them hypocrites for attacking the ultra-religious governments of Khamenei’s Iran and Rehman’s Pakistan while “supporting a Christian doomsday cult at home.”

    Of course, the big race grabbing everyone’s attention was that for Governor. Grey Davis was successfully recalled by the Californian public, and the voters went for the legendary actor and former Mayor Clint Eastwood over Cruz Bustamante and Peter Camejo. Eastwood’s campaign was largely based on lowering unpopular tax hikes under Governor Davis and drastically downsizing the state government. Eastwood’s anti-administration rhetoric also appealed to voters in a heavily Democratic state. While Eastwood supported the Thurmond tax cuts, he made himself ambiguous on whether he supports North’s re-election campaign. His strongest objections to the president come on the issue of foreign policy.

    When asked about the War on Terror, Eastwood said “I just wonder does this ever stop? And no, it doesn’t. So each time we get in these conflicts, it deserves a lot of thought before we go wading in or wading out. Going in or coming out. It needs a better thought process, I think.” Eastwood’s candidacy has already revealed some of the cracks in the Republican Party coming ahead of the 2004 elections. Anew band of libertarians within the party have coalesced around Ron Paul’s viral primary challenge.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  12. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I think complex is a euphemism. I think "lying shithead" is a better term. In his private life, Thurmond embraced the very integration he denounced on the Senate floor.
     
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  13. theev Suede-Denim Secret Police

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    I wouldn't even say embrace necessarily. I always saw Strom's mixed-race child less as "the man isn't racist" and more as "that's like the 1940s equivalent of racists now watching interracial porn" or something to that effect.
     
  14. Oppo Nationalize Five Guys

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    It was somewhat the opposite of that. Unlike Robert Byrd or other Jim Crow Senators, Thurmond never repudiated his Dixiecrat past.
     
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  15. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I'm referring to his affair with a black maid. He destroyed lives with his "anti-miscegenation" BS, but had no problem with fathering a mixed race child himself.

    My point is, he was a vile hypocrite who hurt people. And to whitewash his reputation is to bury his legacy of oppressive racism.
     
  16. theev Suede-Denim Secret Police

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    And I agree with that, but don't see his fathering a mixed race child as him not necessarily being personally racist.
     
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  17. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    I don't. I see it as an example of just how twisted segregation was.
     
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  18. Jellico Well-Known Member

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    Not being from America I know very little about the man until he got a bit of fame close to his death. I always figured conflicting principles. Eg a gentleman looks after his messes. I suspected Strom's racial positions were thought out rather than just plain hatred. At least that takes some intellectual effort. It is possible to have a position where "the races shouldn't mix" and "everyone should have a chance to achieve their potential*" can sit side by side.

    But the last few posts above shows how it can muddy the water and make Strom anything from a hate filled racist to a progressive feminist.


    * In their own special isolated racial boxes.
    + I am in a happy mixed marriage so I clearly don't agree with Strom, but I always prefer someone who can explain why they are a duchebag over someone who is blindly a douchebag.
     
  19. theev Suede-Denim Secret Police

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    Separate but equal is inherently unequal and the people, like Strom, who stood by that system knew that.
     
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  20. Nyvis Well-Known Member

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    Haha you made Jello mayor. That's going to be interesting.
     
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