US adopts Bren in the late 1930s

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Do they use that or a PKM? I honestly don't know.
The TO&E for the 1991 Red Army shows a squad having a singe RPK-74 (magazine fed) with no assistant gunner.
There is no machine gun at platoon level. Just the 3 RPKs of the squads.
The company has a machine gun/anti-tank platoon with 3 two man PKM teams, and also 3 two man AT-7 ATGM teams. I suspect the PKMs would have been attached one per platoon when dismounted.
I don't know it that organization still is used.
 
I think if the US went with a LMG in the 1930's it would be a FN-D as that is basically a variant of the BAR while the Bren gun would be significantly different. I think it would be easier to train the troops using an upgraded version of what they were already using instead of a completely different gun. In either case US doctrine would have to change, probably for the better.
 

McPherson

Banned
That's my point, a rifle squad operates as a unit. The Americans didn't think in terms of a squad LMG till after the war, when they analyzed German doctrine. The Bren was a poor attempt at a squad LMG compared to the MG-34, or MG-42 in a German Rifle Squad. Since the British weren't fighting the Americans, but were fighting the Germans it makes more sense to compare each rifle squad against a German squad, rather then each American or British Weapon against each other.

So in 1944 what's best, a British rifle section of 11 men with 1 Bren gun, 1 Sten, and 9 Enfield's. An American squad of 12 armed with 2 BAR's, 1Thompson, 1 Springfield, 1 M-2 Carbine, and 7 M-1 Garand's. Or a German 10 man squad with 1 MG-42, 1 MP-40, and 8 Karabiner 98K's.

Except the T10 (the original version of the T23E1), BEGAN in 1934 with the American intention of producing a portable section machine gun that could accompany assault troops forward as the British did with the Lewis gun and the French did with the Chauchat machine guns of WWI. This was not something the Americans had to lesson learn from WWII. They knew from WWI with their own experience. They just SCREWED it up in development and by 1942 when they finally worked the bugs out, it was 2 years too late.
I think if the US went with a LMG in the 1930's it would be a FN-D as that is basically a variant of the BAR while the Bren gun would be significantly different. I think it would be easier to train the troops using an upgraded version of what they were already using instead of a completely different gun. In either case US doctrine would have to change, probably for the better.
See previous remark. US doctrine (automatic riflemen teams provide cover support fire in the assault.) actually retrograded from WWI (French) practice learned because they were stuck with stupid and they had to deal with the BAR hand dealt. This is what happened instead of "learning from the Germans", which is kind of not what happened when you look at the evolution of American platoon tactics in the 1950s from WWII lessons learned.
 
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marathag

Banned
f the US had a real LMG they would have dumped their BAR's into the nearest ditch not because the BAR was a bad weapon just that it was not as good as a BREN.
Guys would have dropped their Garands for a BAR anyday of the week, and twice on Sundays
 

Deleted member 1487

Guys would have dropped their Garands for a BAR anyday of the week, and twice on Sundays
Depends, research and testing showed more than 2 BARs declined the effectiveness of a 9 man squad, because they had too few weapons capable of closer combat. 3 worked with a 12 man squad because they still had sufficient rifles for all missions, plus enough ammo bearers. Similar with LMGs; more than one actually degraded overall squad performance because they required too much ammo and sucked in too many men to operate effectively, plus were generally too heavy to keep up with the riflemen.

The Brits found that out during WW2 and broke up LMGs into a fire support group at the platoon level and grouped the riflemen into one unit to be an independent maneuver group, with the 2 inch mortar following behind the riflemen as an area suppression weapon to support their maneuvering. The Brits had the Bren, which was as light as the BAR at the time they made that choice. I even came across a Bundewehr manual written in the 1950s by a German WW2 officer who also mentioned that if a squad were to have an LMG in the future it would need to be no heavier than 6.5 kg so it didn't fall behind the riflemen, as that was a huge problem with the 11kg MG42 and 12kg MG34. The BAR was 8.8 kg and did apparently weight down the gunner enough that in maneuvering it generally fell behind the advance and wore out the gunner more quickly.

I think if the US went with a LMG in the 1930's it would be a FN-D as that is basically a variant of the BAR while the Bren gun would be significantly different. I think it would be easier to train the troops using an upgraded version of what they were already using instead of a completely different gun. In either case US doctrine would have to change, probably for the better.
Not necessarily given the the FN-D was incompatible with the older stocks of BARs and was even more expensive; if you're going to adopt an effectively new LMG might as well have one that is cheaper and lighter.
 
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marathag

Banned
Depends, research and testing showed more than 2 BARs declined the effectiveness of a 9 man squad, because they had too few weapons capable of closer combat
Then you have the Marine Fire Team model, with three teams, a Fire Team Leader with M1 Carbine, BAR gunner, BAR assistant carrying BAR mags and Carbine, and then one Rifleman with an M1, who was also expected to have some rifle grenades.
The Corporal would have 5 or 10 magazines or clips for the M1, 2 BAR mags and 2 grenades.
BAR Gunner woukd have 9 Mags and 1-2 grenades.
Assistant would have 5 mags for the M1, 8 Bar, and two grenades.
Rifleman would have 10 clips, 2 BAR mags, and Grenades.
Some Squads would swap a Fire Team for a flamethrower/demo charge/bazooka setup as an Assault Team
 

Deleted member 1487

Then you have the Marine Fire Team model, with three teams, a Fire Team Leader with M1 Carbine, BAR gunner, BAR assistant carrying BAR mags and Carbine, and then one Rifleman with an M1, who was also expected to have some rifle grenades.
The Corporal would have 5 or 10 magazines or clips for the M1, 2 BAR mags and 2 grenades.
BAR Gunner woukd have 9 Mags and 1-2 grenades.
Assistant would have 5 mags for the M1, 8 Bar, and two grenades.
Rifleman would have 10 clips, 2 BAR mags, and Grenades.
Some Squads would swap a Fire Team for a flamethrower/demo charge/bazooka setup as an Assault Team
Which worked better than the WW2 12 man US Army model without internal structure and provided the inspiration for the modern fire team concept, however US army experience still suggested the 9 man squad with a LMG and no sub-team structure works better given the fragility of a fire team in terms of losses, which then require a reorganization in combat when the team ceases to function.

Even some Marines with Vietnam experience had other ideas based on the fragility of the fire team:
Webb's suggestion is based on the advent of the assault rifle though. However it was also discovered in testing that the largest unit a single leader could control in all situations was 5 men, so a 6 man element with the leader, which is what Webb suggests the fire team be remodeled on. No reason that couldn't work with a BAR and Garands or better yet the Bren if desired, though given the weight penalty and the role of the squad if the LMGs are grouped at the platoon level it might make more sense to mix in M2 Carbines instead with 30 round magazines with muzzle brakes so they could lay down closer range automatic fire or higher volume of semi-auto fire for greater accuracy.
 
Then you have the Marine Fire Team model, with three teams, a Fire Team Leader with M1 Carbine, BAR gunner, BAR assistant carrying BAR mags and Carbine, and then one Rifleman with an M1, who was also expected to have some rifle grenades.
The Corporal would have 5 or 10 magazines or clips for the M1, 2 BAR mags and 2 grenades.
BAR Gunner woukd have 9 Mags and 1-2 grenades.
Assistant would have 5 mags for the M1, 8 Bar, and two grenades.
Rifleman would have 10 clips, 2 BAR mags, and Grenades.
Some Squads would swap a Fire Team for a flamethrower/demo charge/bazooka setup as an Assault Team

Interesting. I'm surprised a Marine Squad had 6 M-1 Carbines, and only 3 M-1 Rifles. It almost seems they only had M-1 Rifles to be available as grenade launchers. I guess the squad leader had a SMG? In 1945 the Marines added an Assault Platoon to a Rifle Company giving them a lot more firepower.
 

marathag

Banned
Interesting. I'm surprised a Marine Squad had 6 M-1 Carbines, and only 3 M-1 Rifles. It almost seems they only had M-1 Rifles to be available as grenade launchers. I guess the squad leader had a SMG? In 1945 the Marines added an Assault Platoon to a Rifle Company giving them a lot more firepower.
They really seemed to like the Carbine. That also had an attachment for grenade launching, but wasn't as popular as just using the Garand. I left out the overall Sergeant who was Squad Leader, officially with aCarbine, but could draw what he wanted, and the BAR assistant changed to a Garand in May, 1945
 
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Deleted member 1487

They really seemed to like the Carbine. That also had an attachment for grenade launching, but wasn't as popular as just using the Garand. I left out the overall Sergeant who was Squad Leader, officially with aCarbine, but could draw what he wanted, and the BAR assistant changed to a Garand in May, 1945
Might be due to fighting in the jungle where the M1 carbine was a lot handier than a rifle. They did try to carbine-ize the Garand for that in the Pacific too by 1945, but that wasn't nearly as easy to work out though. So seems like a 2x6 man fire team with a mix of Carbines and Garands would work out pretty well, especially when the M2 version showed up and the Thompson could be ditched with the Brens kicked up to the platoon level for a fire support squad.
 
No it wasn't. It was the quintessential WWII LMG.


Those were GPMGs.

The Bren gun weighs 25lbs loaded, the MG-42 25.57, so weight is a wash. As you say the MG-42 is a GPMG with a higher rate of fire then any Allied MG. of WWII. So again I ask is a British Section of 11 men better severed by a Bren, then a 10 man German Squad by an MG-42? How does a German Squad stack up to a British Section, or an American Squad? The Germans had the right idea trying to go with a squad with MP-44's.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Bren gun weighs 25lbs loaded, the MG-42 25.57, so weight is a wash. As you say the MG-42 is a GPMG with a higher rate of fire then any Allied MG. of WWII. So again I ask is a British Section of 11 men better severed by a Bren, then a 10 man German Squad by an MG-42? How does a German Squad stack up to a British Section, or an American Squad? The Germans had the right idea trying to go with a squad with MP-44's.
Is that weight for the MG42 loaded or not? I thought that was the empty weight and with a belt it goes up considerably.
Given that the Brits were attacking the Bren was probably as good as could be expected for the time, while the MG42 really only worked well on the defensive given the weight and ammo requirements.
Fully agree on the StG though.
 
They really seemed to like the Carbine. That also had an attachment for grenade launching, but wasn't as popular as just using the Garand. I left out the overall Sergeant who was Squad Leader, officially with aCarbine, but could draw what he wanted, and the BAR assistant changed to a Garand in May, 1945

Garand Grenade launcher

 
I have said it before and am boringly going to repeat it here

My ideal Mid war allied Squad would be 1 BREN/BREW (30-06 Winchester version) with 25 Magazines spread around the unit and managed by the Squad/Section 2IC who is armed with a No4.T with a 3.5x scope / or equivalent US 30-06 scoped Weapon

Then everyone else using M2 Carbines with 2 men also equipped with the M8 GL attachments

I've done the maths - an M2 Carbine with 135 rounds (8x15 round magazines + 1 in the weapon) is the about the same weight as a loaded No4 Lee Enfield rifle - allowing the Carbine armed troops to still carry 2 Bren gun mags and 100 rounds of .303 / 30-06

This allows the Platoon commander in the assault to reorg into 1 Fire support section with 3 Brens, 3 sniper rifles and the 2" Mortar under command of the Platoon sgt leaving the 3 rifle squads to manoeuvre under their supporting fire.

Thats what I would have done.....but no one asked for my opinion at the time.
 
The Bren gun weighs 25lbs loaded, the MG-42 25.57, so weight is a wash.
No, it's very much not a wash, please factor in the weight of a 50 round belt and the ergonomics of a 50 round belt flopping around.

As you say the MG-42 is a GPMG with a higher rate of fire then any Allied MG.
You know, for when you want to dump said 50 round belt in 4 seconds. Truly a quantum leap in suicide by logistics.

So again I ask is a British Section of 11 men better severed by a Bren, then a 10 man German Squad by an MG-42? How does a German Squad stack up to a British Section, or an American Squad?
In a vacuum? The the best is the late war Soviet section with 7 PPSh41s and 2 DP-28s.

In reality? The best is the one with the best radio to the best artillery. ie the Americans.
 
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Deleted member 1487

In reality? The one with the best radio to the best artillery. ie the Americans.
Didn't really inflict the necessary casualty ratios though. Per Zetterling's research into Normandy German losses were substantially lower than the Wallies in combat up until Falaise and then only evened out during the major PoW hauls racked up during August-September. Then it wasn't until '45 and the collapse of the German front in Spring that saw casualties rates go from roughly even to in favor of the Wallies decisively when the major PoW hauls came in again. That's with the full weight of US and UK air power, artillery, tanks, ammo, etc. not to mention numerical superiority.

Certainly access to artillery and a good radio connection is vital, but just having it doesn't mean it's going to be the decisive factor. Someone still needs to go in and take the ground even if artillery suppresses (destruction by fire is more a Soviet thing and very costly with mixed results)
 
Didn't really inflict the necessary casualty ratios though. Per Zetterling's research into Normandy German losses were substantially lower than the Wallies in combat up until Falaise and then only evened out during the major PoW hauls racked up during August-September. Then it wasn't until '45 and the collapse of the German front in Spring that saw casualties rates go from roughly even to in favor of the Wallies decisively when the major PoW hauls came in again. That's with the full weight of US and UK air power, artillery, tanks, ammo, etc. not to mention numerical superiority.

Certainly access to artillery and a good radio connection is vital, but just having it doesn't mean it's going to be the decisive factor. Someone still needs to go in and take the ground even if artillery suppresses (destruction by fire is more a Soviet thing and very costly with mixed results)
So in other words, the Germans only did well in Normandy, where they had prepared positions and a short front, and on the Siegfried line where they had prepared positions and terrain that restricted manoeuvre. Offensives against prepared positions being costly is hardly unique to the allied experience.
 
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