URHAFAH: Universal Historical Atlas For AlternateHistorians

[Alex Richards]

I'm personally more concerned about how France has no less than 6 surnumerary cultures.
Occitan is almost gone, Lorrain, Normand, Gallo, Aquitain are completely gone, Picard is just an accent nowadays, Provençal meh, I'll take Breton, Alsacien, Corse and Basque with no problems but France is overall mostly homogeneous, doesn't justify having so many distinct "cultures".

Which is kind of my view- if Normand is a separate culture, then Yorkshire definitely is.

Cornish is as much a culture as Alsacien, Gaelic Scotland is as distinct from the rest of Scotland as Gaelic speaking Ireland is from the rest of Ireland (if not more so) and you could make a decent argument that the Welsh-speaking parts of Wales are culturally distinct from the English speaking parts.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Religions 1648
@Alex Richards : Indeed I first drew a Marcher Welsh culture, to represent the English-speaking parts of Wales, but then got comments from stiffed up Welshmen, requesting a unified Welsh culture. As for France, I might as well agree from the linguistic point of view, esp. after the French revolution and homogenization of the country.
So new proposal for France:

Note: the French cultures were based upon the maps of the various French dialects, this one based upon this map:
https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/bkvja9/minority_languages_in_france/

 

[Alex Richards]

@Alex Richards : Indeed I first drew a Marcher Welsh culture, to represent the English-speaking parts of Wales, but then got comments from stiffed up Welshmen, requesting a unified Welsh culture. As for France, I might as well agree from the linguistic point of view, esp. after the French revolution and homogenization of the country.

The point was the inconsistency more than anything else. There is a cultural divide between English and Welsh speaking Wales and rivalries between them, but overall he majority would define identity as 'Welsh'. This divide is consistent with how England has been shown (though not, in fact, Ireland where the English speaking bits and Irish speaking bits would both culturally identify as 'Irish' before anything else) but isn't consistent with France or especially Germany (or even the Czech Republic- the Sudetenland is certainly not as culturally distinct from Bohemia even if you can argue for Moravia). I find it hard to believe for example that, apart perhaps from Bavaria, the majority of Germans wouldn't just answer the identity question as 'German' in a way that English people would be torn between 'English' and 'British'.

Also, looking at it you didn't draw a Marcher Welsh culture, you just showed the English speaking bits of Wales as part of a unified English culture.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Is it too late to reply to this thread?

Believe not

 

[Kosta]

View attachment 486839View attachment 486837
I have put together the bits and pieces, here we have it. (Although I personally would divide Western Sahara into Hassaniya and Moroccan Arabic culture. Whatever).

I don't understand what's going on in Greece and Cyprus. I wouldn't agree that Cypriot Greeks get their own yellowish color completely different from the Republic of Greece while Cypriot Turks get the same muted terracotta as the Anatolian mainland. The idea that non-Turkish Cypriots are their own, wholly unique group with no ties to the Greek people might be a growing idea on the English-language internet like say r/cyprus, but there is no box that Cypriots would not check in whatever hazy checklist determines who's Greek. It's disingenuous. I've even seen some really weird guy on there make SSNP maps that include Cyprus because he feels like a long-lost Semite or something. I'd put my life's savings on that identity being one guy on the whole island. The last Maronite villagers probably feel more Greek than he does. Weird shit. It would make more sense to have one color scheme for the remaining Greek-speaking world, and there are multiple ways to divide it (that could get confusing really quickly). In that case, what color do the few thousand people each across Greece who still claim an Arvanite and Vlach identity against all odds get? I think that's what you were going for with Central Macedonia which is what, supposed to be a hybrid color of the Slavic lilac and Greek powder-blue? Again, after two hundred years of ethnonationalism, a Slavic identity across all of Macedonia is small. Entire towns were repopulated with Pontian refugees, some of whom still spoke better Turkish than Greek in the 1970's. The town of Kozani almost has a sort of Pontian-Modern Standard Greek hybrid action going on. I'd even think it would make more sense to dot this part of the country with a color to represent Pontians. No map can honestly give a few regional units of Central Macedonia (and not even all of it) its own color to hint at something unique going on there but imply Crete, Kerkyra, and the Evros regional unit the same color and imply homogeneity.

Where are you getting your sources from and what's your internal logic here? Maybe I'm guessing incorrectly and you're already trying to imply some of the stuff that I've outlined. I tried being a huge ass in Cyprus by calling myself a «καλαμαράς» to imply I know what they call Ελλαδίτες (I'm not one because I wasn't born in the confines of the Hellenic Republic) and it totally backfired. Any animosity is imagined. Their ancestors died to be Greek, a lot of shit has gone between 1821 and now. If anything, because the societal cleft between Turkish Cypriots whose ancestors moved there anytime between about 1571 and 1974 and then the early 1980's to the present has grown so wide, it might be most accurate to give the occupied north two cultural colors. Here's one example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...im-enough-fear-turkish-cypriots-as-poll-looms

 

[Tomislav Addai]

I don't understand what's going on in Greece and Cyprus. I wouldn't agree that Cypriot Greeks get their own yellowish color completely different from the Republic of Greece while Cypriot Turks get the same muted terracotta as the Anatolian mainland. The idea that non-Turkish Cypriots are their own, wholly unique group with no ties to the Greek people might be a growing idea on the English-language internet like say r/cyprus, but there is no box that Cypriots would not check in whatever hazy checklist determines who's Greek. It's disingenuous. I've even seen some really weird guy on there make SSNP maps that include Cyprus because he feels like a long-lost Semite or something. I'd put my life's savings on that identity being one guy on the whole island. The last Maronite villagers probably feel more Greek than he does. Weird shit. It would make more sense to have one color scheme for the remaining Greek-speaking world, and there are multiple ways to divide it (that could get confusing really quickly). In that case, what color do the few thousand people each across Greece who still claim an Arvanite and Vlach identity against all odds get? I think that's what you were going for with Central Macedonia which is what, supposed to be a hybrid color of the Slavic lilac and Greek powder-blue? Again, after two hundred years of ethnonationalism, a Slavic identity across all of Macedonia is small. Entire towns were repopulated with Pontian refugees, some of whom still spoke better Turkish than Greek in the 1970's. The town of Kozani almost has a sort of Pontian-Modern Standard Greek hybrid action going on. I'd even think it would make more sense to dot this part of the country with a color to represent Pontians. No map can honestly give a few regional units of Central Macedonia (and not even all of it) its own color to hint at something unique going on there but imply Crete, Kerkyra, and the Evros regional unit the same color and imply homogeneity.

Where are you getting your sources from and what's your internal logic here? Maybe I'm guessing incorrectly and you're already trying to imply some of the stuff that I've outlined. I tried being a huge ass in Cyprus by calling myself a «καλαμαράς» to imply I know what they call Ελλαδίτες (I'm not one because I wasn't born in the confines of the Hellenic Republic) and it totally backfired. Any animosity is imagined. Their ancestors died to be Greek, a lot of shit has gone between 1821 and now. If anything, because the societal cleft between Turkish Cypriots whose ancestors moved there anytime between about 1571 and 1974 and then the early 1980's to the present has grown so wide, it might be most accurate to give the occupied north two cultural colors. Here's one example: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...im-enough-fear-turkish-cypriots-as-poll-looms

Actually Greek Macedonia has the Pontic colour. Cypriot Greeks got their own colour, for it was a separate language listed on Wikipedia

 

[Kosta]

Actually Greek Macedonia has the Pontic colour. Cypriot Greeks got their own colour, for it was a separate language listed on Wikipedia

That's a start but it's not entirely the full picture because there are plenty of Pontians not in the Thessaloniki prefecture that still keep the identity alive, and there are plenty of Greeks within that have no such identity and are barely aware that perhaps all 8 of their great-grandparents were from disparate parts of Asia Minor. Only now is it in vogue to get reacquainted with ones roots. What about using dots or cross-hatching across all of Macedonia?


Where on wikipedia? Even the very page on Kypriaká calls it a dialect. I'm not interested in debating what's a language and what's a dialect, but multiple forms of Greek are spoken on just this one island, just as there is in Crete. The modern standard is eating Kypriaká as we speak, which is lamentable, but even at its most unadulterated, there is intelligibility between both the standard controlled by the ethnostate ruled from Athens and the island nation. At that point, because the famous singer Nikos Xylouris said in an interview «Ω, ποτέ. Δεν ξέρω να μιλώ πρωτευουσιάνικα. Τα κρητικά τα έχω μέσα μου. Δε μπορώ να αλλάξω»—"Oh, never. I don't know how to speak the [language of the] capital. Cretan/Kritiká I have inside of me. I can't change." If Cyprus goes and Pontiaká in Thess with it, then tear the whole Greek blue down to be consistent.

The rules this project are using I find to be a just a tad inconsistent but in no way do I find this offensive. I am very much a fan and your maps are the only thing that really keep me on this site because I find the community aspect to be lacking.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

That's a start but it's not entirely the full picture because there are plenty of Pontians not in the Thessaloniki prefecture that still keep the identity alive, and there are plenty of Greeks within that have no such identity and are barely aware that perhaps all 8 of their great-grandparents were from disparate parts of Asia Minor. Only now is it in vogue to get reacquainted with ones roots. What about using dots or cross-hatching across all of Macedonia?


Where on wikipedia? Even the very page on Kypriaká calls it a dialect. I'm not interested in debating what's a language and what's a dialect, but multiple forms of Greek are spoken on just this one island, just as there is in Crete. The modern standard is eating Kypriaká as we speak, which is lamentable, but even at its most unadulterated, there is intelligibility between both the standard controlled by the ethnostate ruled from Athens and the island nation. At that point, because the famous singer Nikos Xylouris said in an interview «Ω, ποτέ. Δεν ξέρω να μιλώ πρωτευουσιάνικα. Τα κρητικά τα έχω μέσα μου. Δε μπορώ να αλλάξω»—"Oh, never. I don't know how to speak the [language of the] capital. Cretan/Kritiká I have inside of me. I can't change." If Cyprus goes and Pontiaká in Thess with it, then tear the whole Greek blue down to be consistent.

The rules this project are using I find to be a just a tad inconsistent but in no way do I find this offensive. I am very much a fan and your maps are the only thing that really keep me on this site because I find the community aspect to be lacking.

I used this as source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_languages.

As you see, Cypriot, Pontic and Cappadocian do in fact qualify as separate. Tsakonian would qualify as well, as would Griko. However, the other Greek dialects are not listed as separate ones, and I would not regard them as such.
Cyprus hisotrically had the experience of being detatched from the rest of Greece (Kingdom of Cyprus, British Cyprus)...

 

[Tomislav Addai]

A map of the writing systems in the world, present day

 

[NorCalifornio]

Sorry if this is too blunt, but the US on the 2019 linguistic map is just awful. The idea that San Diego and OC are more Spanish-speaking than LA, Bakersfield, Fresno, etc. is laughable. And I don't know where you got the idea that Louisiana is mostly Francophone. Louisiana French has been in steep decline for a long time, and is in danger of going extinct. This is supposed to be OTL, right?

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Sorry if this is too blunt, but the US on the 2019 linguistic map is just awful. The idea that San Diego and OC are more Spanish-speaking than LA, Bakersfield, Fresno, etc. is laughable. And I don't know where you got the idea that Louisiana is mostly Francophone. Louisiana French has been in steep decline for a long time, and is in danger of going extinct. This is supposed to be OTL, right?

Indeed it is OTL. Should you spot any inaccuracies, you are free and welcome to correct them

 

[Tomislav Addai]

A map of religion in South africa in the 1990s

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Patched modern day religion map in SA

 

[Tomislav Addai]

What should be mapped next?

 

[Wendell]

What should be mapped next?

Ethnic groups? Systems of government?

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Ethnic groups? Systems of government?

Ethnic groups...those have actually been mapped in present day
As for government systems, I am not sure what are the intricacies to distinguish.

Also, have you any knowledge of 16th century major date ( there are some maps for 1648, 1701, 1815 and 1915)

 

[Wendell]

1500 was the Battle of Modon. Charles V HRE was crowned King of Spain in 1516, and Holy Roman Emperor in 1519.

 

[Wendell]

1500 was the Battle of Modon. Charles V HRE was crowned King of Spain in 1516, and Holy Roman Emperor in 1519.

Thinking about this again, either of the first two battles of Panipat would be the event around which to build your map.

 

[Tomislav Addai]

Thinking about this again, either of the first two battles of Panipat would be the event around which to build your map.

1526 could be above date, do you have knowledge of any important changes in linguistic or religious landscape?

 

[Wendell]

1526 could be above date, do you have knowledge of any important changes in linguistic or religious landscape?

Not specifically, no. But I think Islam was growing over the course of that century in Bengal and the East Indies.