Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

You know ... So, hear me out: Our friend here was a former Democrat who moved into the GOP but eventually became disillusioned with them as a result of focusing more on Big Business and moving away from the Yeoman ideals he had. We also know in this timeline that the Democracy is largely dead and nothing too stable has risen up to take its place. There will eventually be a rival party to the GOP which rises up: likely a party built upon an alliance between the still operating City Poliitcal Machines, agrarian interests, disillusioned Republicans, and economic radicals and so forth. In this field, our friend here may become one of the chief organizers of the new Party. I doubt he'd get tothe Presidency - his personality is a bit too ... quicksilver for that, but I could certainly see him emerge as a governor or Senator (of ourse, even in OTL, the GOP dominated Minnesota politis so utterly that it lead to the rise of a state-based 3rd party in the early 20th century. Just like neighboring Wisconsin and North Dakota, actually. But the new party won't be Democrats, and so they may find a slightly more fertile field to take root in. Especially if the new party, at least on the local level, can contain proto-Farm-Labor elements)
The political coalitions you describe seem to be the most plausible ones for the post war world. Though the Republicans will emerge as the dominant party, they will inevitably break up, and the other party would most likely include a lot of the former Democrats.

Random question, can anyone remind me of where Fredrick Douglass is in this TL?
He's a prominent thinker and activist, working in the North to secure Black enlistment and suffrage. He was invited to the ceremony commemorating the Victors of Union Mills and was personally reveived by Lincoln.

You mentioned 1890 and it reminded me that oh... Okay. I better explain first baseball had something called The Reserve Clause that was in existence since 1879 till it was struck down in 1976. The Reserve Clause said that a player was tied to his team once he signed with them and could only leave the team by being traded or released. Free agency became a thing in 1976 after a couple players played the 1975 season without signing contract. They were ruled free agents because the signing of the contract that had been sent was just so automatic and it had never been tried to actually have a player not sign the deal they were tendered.

So in 1890 The Players League was formed by players to try to counter this and also gained higher salaries because a salary cap and been instituted by the National League. In our timeline it drew well but a few factors kept owners from being confident enough to continue. In this time line perhaps something like this will be tried and be successful, with free agency and such existing in sports from the beginning.
I will include some interrsting baseball PODs in the future just for you :)

A few days late but I always want to pop in and say these updates are a treat to read--one of the best TLs on this site for sure.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate comments like this one, and thank you for your kindness and the time you took to write it.

I like this as well and maybe it breed better oppions about the Italians and Italian Unification
I wonder if that could result in some butterflies in Italy...

Thinking about it again, the possession of land might reduce the black-white income gap but also expands the black capitalist class. Historically, black business during Reconstruction was mostly small business and usually in the service sector: grocery, restaurants, hotels as well as banks and insurance later in the 20th century.

With black ownership of land, they would have more incentive to actually invest their income into their land and more income for their children's education. Furthermore, ownership of land facilitated access to credit markets by serving as collateral on loans, allowing freedmen farmers to finance risky or lumpy investments. For example these black landowners could invest in orchards. A study shows that Cherokee freedmen who owned land were able to invest in orchards, which in the short-run produced little income but had a long and productive lifespan. A farmer could earn $58 per acre planted in apple trees and $7 per acre planted in corn.

With the next generation inheriting their family's wealth, having a better education than historical, facing less restrictions and perhaps having black politicians to support them, it is plausible that the next generation could fulfill Booker T. Washington's vision of an economically independent black community. Also on the black food gardens, I find it funny that after the war the Southerners who chastise and lament about how lazy freedmen were for wanting to grow food instead of cotton would later be begging blacks for food after the crop failures of 1866-67.


Assuming that Garibaldi is still injured at Aspromonte in 1862, he should be available in spring 1864 onward. After getting wounded at Aspromonte, Garibaldi spent 1863 in Caprera due to poor health. IOTL he left Caprera for London in spring 1864. The exact reason for his travel is not entirely clear. It could be the case that Garibaldi was trying to pressure the British gov't over the war between Denmark and Prussia and Austria. Or he could've been attempting to establish closer links with the National League for Polish independence, which was sympathetic to Italian unification. The most likely case is that the trip was planned by politicians Aurelio Saffi and Agostino Bertani, with the intent of swaying British public opinion to push their government into supporting Italin unification.

That said, perhaps with the end of the ACW so close, Garibaldi could go to the U.S. to participate in the fighting as well as gain experienced U.S. volunteers and arms for the next war of Italian unification. Interestingly, to tie in with the "Engel brigade" Garibaldi was starting to show socialist sympathies in his letters to Sicilian revolutionaries after 1862.
Generational wealth is a very real thing, and this foundation should help many generations more. I like the idea of orchards... I would have Garibaldi mostly because it would be cool, not gonna lie, but I think it's plausible enough and could maybe result in him being more sympathetic to socialism and State intervention.

After a dark age of the South aggressively, obnoxiously, and arrogantly tried to keep their "way of life" via force, intimidation, fear, hate, mobs, and insults, and whatever else, from the Cannings in Congress to the lynching of innocent Northerners, finally they have been taken off their pedestal, and now they are going for their final solution; war. Here we go!
Keep reading to see how radical the war can get!

Envisioning Teddy Roosevelt and Williams Jennings Bryan in the same political party feels kind of weird.

If the Democrats are completely destroyed, you might see Roosevelt being part of an urban-centered Republican party and Bryan being part of an agrarian-centered Populist party.
Was the Republican party a mainly urban one by the turn of the century? Because in 1860 most Republicans were rural farmers.

I just woke up, so I initially read this as “being part of an urban-legend Republican party”. That’d be a different reality.

In any case, couldn’t it be possible for a more Radical Reconstruction to decide that First Past the Post is a bad idea? After all, it helped the slavers have a stranglehold on the South and aid in their attack on human decency.
Some people, IOTL and in this thread, have suggested new voting methods to reduce racial tensions and encourage Black representation. @Drunkrobot has talied about the topic for example. But most of the time it remains in the first past the post frame.

TR (and even young Henry Cabot Lodge) could bolt the GOP to TTL Liberal Republican Party. This party then could merge with other GOP splinter factions like the Greenbacks, the Populists, bla bla, like the Dems did IOTL.

Alternatively, you can have someone like Charles Francis Adams becoming President as a Republican, and former Conservative Whigs and other pro-Spoils System folks bolt the party - let's say American Party.
People like Adams were usually alienated from the Republican Party because they disliked the more powerful national state and kept middle class sensibilities that made the populism and activism of some Republicans difficult to swallow - case in point, Adams and many friends were scared to death of "Butlerism", which they equated with the Paris Commune.
 
Was the Republican party a mainly urban one by the turn of the century? Because in 1860 most Republicans were rural farmers.
They were in 1896-1908 a.k.a TR era, because WJB and the Populists scared the shit out of urban folks. And even in previoud periods, they were supported by urban middle-class and upper-class, who were mostly WASP folks at the time.
People like Adams were usually alienated from the Republican Party because they disliked the more powerful national state and kept middle class sensibilities that made the populism and activism of some Republicans difficult to swallow - case in point, Adams and many friends were scared to death of "Butlerism", which they equated with the Paris Commune
They opposed the Spoils System as well. The problem for the GOP is that, opposition to the Spoils System was the natural position of many liberals, social and political reformers, as well as populists and labor (the biggest issue here is not about Freemen Reconstruction governments in the South, but that the Spoils System and patronage were associated with the Gilded Age Robber Barons - and genuinely corrupt hacks like Simon Cameron or Roscoe Conkling - these figures were despised by all those groups mentioned above). Hence, there were continuous migration of liberals and progressives away from the GOP throughout the Gilded Age, from Liberal Republicans to Prohibition, Populists, Greenbacks (and after 1900 Progressives) and all sort of GOP splinter groups - these groups eventually hijacked, or were absorbed by the Democrats IOTL. However, ITTL the Democrats is dead.

If you put Charles Francid Adams or someone like him (for war heroes you have James Garfield and Joshua Chamberlain) in the Presidency, the Stalwarts would bolt the GOP, but those groups I mentioned above would have taken over the party instead.
 
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They were in 1896-1908 a.k.a TR era, because WJB and the Populists scared the shit out of urban folks. And even in previoud periods, they were supported by urban middle-class and upper-class, who were mostly WASP folks at the time.

They opposed the Spoils System as well. The problem for the GOP is that, opposition to the Spoils System was the natural position of many liberals, social and political reformers, as well as populists and labor (the biggest issue here is not about Freemen Reconstruction governments in the South, but that the Spoils System and patronage were associated with the Gilded Age Robber Barons - and genuinely corrupt hacks like Simon Cameron or Roscoe Conkling - these figures were despised by all those groups mentioned above). Hence, there were continuous migration of liberals and progressives away from the GOP throughout the Gilded Age, from Liberal Republicans to Prohibition, Populists, Greenbacks (and after 1900 Progressives) and all sort of GOP splinter groups - these groups eventually hijacked, or were absorbed by the Democrats IOTL. However, ITTL the Democrats is dead.

If you put Charles Francid Adams or someone like him (for war heroes you have James Garfield and Joshua Chamberlain) in the Presidency, the Stalwarts would bolt the GOP, but those groups I mentioned above would have taken over the party instead.
The combinations of the post war world will be very interesting. Right now all those groups are united in the war for Union and Liberty, and during at least the initial phase of Reconstruction they will be united by a desire to preserve the gains of the war. But they will inevitably split, and without a coherent and united party opposed to the Republicans different combinations are bound to appear.

I will gladly do so! 😀
Thank you!
 
Harsh punishment for the worst traitors will also ensure that they never try anything like this ever again.
Well I have to disagree here, it will probably make it more likely. It just means they'll have less economic clout.
him not being martyred
Theres still time. Maybe his marterhood can serve to further radicalize the north.
"crusade against wage slavery"
Isn't this anachronistic?
 
Well I have to disagree here, it will probably make it more likely. It just means they'll have less economic clout.

Theres still time. Maybe his marterhood can serve to further radicalize the north.

Isn't this anachronistic?

No, that was actually an argument used for the hypocrisy of the North given factory conditions and wages as compared to the propaganda of slave life at the time.
 

SuperZtar64

Banned
> be me
> finally reading through this timeline after keeping it sad and lonely in my bookmarks for months
> about a third of the way through it
> go to look at discussion towards the end
> people are talking about Marxism


should I be scared
 
> be me
> finally reading through this timeline after keeping it sad and lonely in my bookmarks for months
> about a third of the way through it
> go to look at discussion towards the end
> people are talking about Marxism


should I be scared
Nah, just speculation with a dash of hyperbole.
 
> be me
> finally reading through this timeline after keeping it sad and lonely in my bookmarks for months
> about a third of the way through it
> go to look at discussion towards the end
> people are talking about Marxism


should I be scared
well Abe and Marx did have a correspondence and political ideologies are still in flux around this time and this a more radical civil war comrade so anything is possible
 
Well I have to disagree here, it will probably make it more likely. It just means they'll have less economic clout.

Theres still time. Maybe his marterhood can serve to further radicalize the north.

Isn't this anachronistic?
No, I will not kill Lincoln. And I don't think it's anachronistic. There was already a lot of talk about how "wage slavery" was the real evil and how the Republicans should shift to fighting against it after the war.

> be me
> finally reading through this timeline after keeping it sad and lonely in my bookmarks for months
> about a third of the way through it
> go to look at discussion towards the end
> people are talking about Marxism


should I be scared
In b4 Comrade Lincoln declares himself dictator of the new and glorious United Soviet States of America.
 
Thank you!
You're welcome! I originally came across this in August, but unfortunately, put it off and forgot about it until a few days ago, when it came across it again and decided to start reading it again from the begging, and I'm glad I did, as I got invested pretty quickly, especially when what the south was doing, which when it comes to these AH.com stories describing how the South, whenever it be the 19th or 20th centuries, would act to preserve their "way of life", almost always gets me riled up. There was just something so obnoxiously arrogant and anger-inducing about their ideology and praxis that gets to me.

Also, I do not mean to bring back up any old drama that may have occurred on this thread when I say this, but can I just say? I'm glad that you were not deterred to change or stop writing your story because of any bad-faith actors, as I'm excited to see what comes of this story and alternate turn out of the ACW, whenever it be good, bad, or other. (I'm on Chapter 12!)
 
It's important to note that while Reconstruction ultimately failed to protect the rights of African-Americans everywhere, it wasn't a total failure. In a sense, not all of its legacies had been totally erased.

Teddy Roosevelt was something of a racist, in the sense that he thought American civilization was superior to African civilization, he still could recognize the achievements of individual African Americans, hence inviting Booker T. Washington over for a meal.

As late as the 1920s, Republicans still believed in the civil rights of African Americans. Warren Harding had the decency to go to Lincoln University and denounce the Tulsa Massacre, and Calvin Coolidge said very gracious things to black students when he spoke at Howard University, and tried to get them more funding. Both men tried to get an anti-lynching bill passed, but were blocked by the Southern politicians.

Hoover may have pushed out black Americans out of the Republicans in an attempt to get Southern votes, but that was more out of political opportunism than pure hatred.

While blacks faced discrimination everywhere, it was still possible for them to find a measure of freedom and prosperity in the Northern and Midwestern states, hence the Great Migration. Chicago's black community was able to send Oscar De Priest to the House as early as 1928.

Even in this period of discrimination, black Americans were still able to build everything from publishing houses to movie studios. I'm not trying to downplay the racism of the period, but showing how African-Americans still endured despite it all.

With a much stronger and more supportive Reconstruction, black Americans could definitely be in a far better position, considering how they were still able to achieve great things even in the nadir of American race relations.
 
Three cheers for Comrade Lincoln! Hero of the Union, savior of the American worker, and the People's President for life!
The Internationale sounds on the background.

You're welcome! I originally came across this in August, but unfortunately, put it off and forgot about it until a few days ago, when it came across it again and decided to start reading it again from the begging, and I'm glad I did, as I got invested pretty quickly, especially when what the south was doing, which when it comes to these AH.com stories describing how the South, whenever it be the 19th or 20th centuries, would act to preserve their "way of life", almost always gets me riled up. There was just something so obnoxiously arrogant and anger-inducing about their ideology and praxis that gets to me.

Also, I do not mean to bring back up any old drama that may have occurred on this thread when I say this, but can I just say? I'm glad that you were not deterred to change or stop writing your story because of any bad-faith actors, as I'm excited to see what comes of this story and alternate turn out of the ACW, whenever it be good, bad, or other. (I'm on Chapter 12!)
The South is really infuriating whenever race comes up. It's disgusting to see them talk about how slavery is a sacred right and the natural condition of Black people. Just sickening. And thanks! I appreciate and welcome criticism, and while it's true that some have tried to push me or change the TL, there was never anyone too bad. I hope you keep reading and enjoy the rest!

With a much stronger and more supportive Reconstruction, black Americans could definitely be in a far better position, considering how they were still able to achieve great things even in the nadir of American race relations.
The Black community has proved a great resilience in the fact of terrible wrongs and injustices. Even a slightly better outcome could result in a much better future for them.



I have written another side-story. I'm really liking these side-stories. Not only are they far easier to write, requiring almost no research, but they allow me to flesh out the world and show you how much bloodier and more brutal the war is ITTL. This one, in particular, is meant to show the fact that Confederates, even if horribly racist, are human too, and that Union guerrillas can also be monstrous. Warning, the update is explicit and graphic, much more than the regular updates, with their "history book" tone. I also accept recommendations! So, if you want me to write about the experience of, say, a German immigrant in Missouri, just write it down here.

(Also, anyone want to contribute more tropes for the TL's Tv Tropes page?)
 
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Side-story: "A Mississippi Guerrilla"
A Mississippi Guerrilla

Andrew quickly ran around the house, doing his best to carry the grain sack and not spill anything. It would not do to leave the soldiers a trail to their hiding place. His arms ached under the weight of the sack, but the 17-year-old boy still ran as fast as he could. He knew that without that grain his mother and his little sister would starve. They didn’t have any Negroes to raise the crops, and with dad and Jim gone their little farm couldn’t raise a lot anyway. And what little they had was then taken by the Army, whose soldiers descended on the farms of every yeoman family like locusts. If only President Breckinridge knew that such abuses were being committed! He would surely put a stop to that. But with the Yankees so close to Atlanta and Richmond Andrew understood that the President needed to focus elsewhere. He understood the fact that men had to have priorities, that’s why he had stayed with mother and Sally even though he wished to join the Army and fight for the South too. Oh, how he would show those Yankees!

He hid the grain well, and then returned. He didn’t want mother to face the soldiers alone, and even if he was only a boy (as some sneering soldiers had already told him), he still felt it was his duty to protect mother and Sally. Just like it was Jim’s duty to join the Army. Three years ago, when the war had just started, he hadn’t understood why. Dad had already joined, why did the South need another man? Jim had embraced him, stroking his hair, and Andrew held into him, not wanting to let go. “There are thousands of Yankees coming here, to Mississippi, to take our property and make us slaves of our Negroes”, he said. “But we don’t have any Negroes!”, Andrew protested, feeling anger against the big planters, who had all the money and all the Negroes. “It does not matter, the Yankees will enslave all the White people if we don’t fight”, Jim took a deep breath and continued, “that’s why I must fight.” He fell later, at the hands of the drunkard Grant at Corinth. Then news came that father died of malaria.

The horses they had heard now burst from the nearby trees, striding towards their shack. But as they drew closer, Andrew noted something, something that made his blood run cold. Their uniforms were not the problem, for they were wearing the brownish, greyish rags that most Confederate soldiers wore, their country to impoverished by the blockade and the Yankee vandals to weave actual gray uniforms. The problem wasn’t the two Negroes riding with them either, they could be slaves for all Andrew knew. The problem was their flag. Instead of their proud Stars and Bars, they were flying the Yankee Stars and Stripes. And alongside it, floating in the air like a terrible warning, there was a black flag.

“Guerrillas”, Andrew thought immediately, “Yankee Guerrillas”. Distinguishing those marauders was necessary, even if Yankee was technically the wrong name for many of them were Southerners who had betrayed their land. Andrew knew that some of the men who fought for the South were called guerrillas and hanged without remorse by the Lincoln Armies. Some could be bloodthirsty indeed, taking pleasure in killing Negroes and murdering Yankee soldiers. But when Lincoln and his acolytes, like the vengeful Stevens or the drunkard Grant, were in a war to exterminate the people of the South, what other choice did they have? They had to resist by all means, and if that meant killing some miserable Negroes, so be it. As far as Andrew was concerned, the so-called Confederate guerrillas were heroes, the same their dad was, and the same Jim had been. He had even wanted to join once, and when a guerrilla tried to recruit him forcibly, he almost went, if not for the cries of his mother, which made even those hardened warriors relent.

The group that was now approaching Andrew’s home was different. Those Yankee guerrillas, groups of deserters, draft-dodgers and Black Republicans, who even recruited Negroes and included some Yankee soldiers, were not heroes. They were monsters. Riding through the South, assassinating people, encouraging desertion, treachery and, worse of all, slave insurrection, the Yankee guerrillas were trying to destroy the South, one murdered innocent at the time. And now it was their turn. They were just ten men, but there wasn’t any Confederate Army nearby to protect them. Maybe one of their guerrillas was nearby? Since they had lost at Liberty, the guerrillas were the ones keeping order and protecting them, even if they sometimes weren’t really gentle either, prone to stealing food and forcing youths to join their ranks. If they were there, they would protect them. But that didn’t matter because they weren’t there.

The guerrillas let out a battle cry, very different from their rebel yell, and charged. Mother, her hair grey and her cheeks swallow, stared in terror. Sally, who at thirteen was shaping up to be a quite handsome girl, had started to sob. And Andrew? Andrew stood frozen in place, keenly feeling that he was just a useless boy. They first cut his mothers throat, saying she was useless to them, before one of the Negroes took Sally. He screamed at the Negro, yelling to take his hands off her, and one of the White men there hit him in the stomach, making him kneel in pain. “Stay silent, boy”, he said, his drawl betraying that he was a traitor. He bit his hand, and then the man, his eyes bloodshot, took him to a nearby tree and started to beat him. Andrew barely felt his kicks and his punches, however. All he felt was white-hot fury, and shame, and horror, as he saw how the guerrillas tore Sally’s clothes and violated her. He didn’t even feel it when the guerrilla tied a rope to a branch, saying he wanted him to suffer, as the other marauders lit the house on fire. He didn’t even hear the rebel yell that broke the air and made the Yankee guerrilla mount their horses and flee.

He did feel the soft kick in his side, that didn’t have any force behind it but still made pain flare. “He’s alive”, a man said, his grey clothes covered with dirt, “help me get him away”. Their guerrillas had come, just too late. Their farm was ashes, mother was dead, Sally was dead, Jim was dead, father was dead, and Andrew was barely alive. The guerrillas that rescued him at the last minute had no medicine, but the whisky they carried helped to numb the pain, nonetheless. Just the physical pain, of course. He had nothing to live for, and he wished he were dead. Maybe he’d use the rope the Yankees had left. But his thoughts were interrupted by the Confederate who had rescued him, who put a hand on his shoulder. “You could do nothing against those cowards, son”, the man said, his eyes speaking of similar grief. “But if you join us, you can avenge your mother and your sister. The Confederacy needs every man.” Andrew nodded, and doing his best to forget the pain, stood up. He felt like killing some Negroes and some Yankees.
 
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Can't blame him, kill my family and burn my home. And I be fighting to the bitter end If need be.

Reminds me of that Clint Eastwood movie in fact.
 
It's important to note that while Reconstruction ultimately failed to protect the rights of African-Americans everywhere, it wasn't a total failure. In a sense, not all of its legacies had been totally erased.

Teddy Roosevelt was something of a racist, in the sense that he thought American civilization was superior to African civilization, he still could recognize the achievements of individual African Americans, hence inviting Booker T. Washington over for a meal.

As late as the 1920s, Republicans still believed in the civil rights of African Americans. Warren Harding had the decency to go to Lincoln University and denounce the Tulsa Massacre, and Calvin Coolidge said very gracious things to black students when he spoke at Howard University, and tried to get them more funding. Both men tried to get an anti-lynching bill passed, but were blocked by the Southern politicians.

Hoover may have pushed out black Americans out of the Republicans in an attempt to get Southern votes, but that was more out of political opportunism than pure hatred.

While blacks faced discrimination everywhere, it was still possible for them to find a measure of freedom and prosperity in the Northern and Midwestern states, hence the Great Migration. Chicago's black community was able to send Oscar De Priest to the House as early as 1928.

Even in this period of discrimination, black Americans were still able to build everything from publishing houses to movie studios. I'm not trying to downplay the racism of the period, but showing how African-Americans still endured despite it all.

With a much stronger and more supportive Reconstruction, black Americans could definitely be in a far better position, considering how they were still able to achieve great things even in the nadir of American race relations.
The Republican Party managed to accomplish alot for equity. Then Woodrow Wilson was elected and it all got washed down the toilet. Decades of progress destroyed in just a few years.
 
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