Until every drop of blood is paid - A more radical American Civil War

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Red_Galiray, Sep 6, 2018.

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  1. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    Quito, Ecuador
    Please, remember to like the post and comment to show me your continued support and discuss the events of the TL! Even a simple "good job" can mean the world to some authors, and personally the appreciation of my readers is one of the things that motivates me the most, aside from my love of history, of course. Let me know what you think of this update!

    Missouri is a mess for now, but the Union is about to strike back.

    Missouri is not that disastrous for Lincoln because it's not paired with a disaster like OTL's Bull Run, but with the unambiguous victory at Baltimore. And yeah, Lyon is probably next in line for Departamental Commander.

    I often daydream about the war during boring classes. It's a period of history I'm really passionate about.

    Let's see if Frémon finds his path in the west.

    They are already down there, but it's going quite differently. For now, I'll focus on the war.

    Foote mentions that Frémont did have foreigners in his headquarters, describing them so: "Resplendent in feathers and loops of the gold braid known locally as "chicken guts," his personal staff included Hungarians and Italians with titles such as "adlatus to the chief" and names that were hardly pronounceable to a Missouri tongue; Emavic, Meizarras, Kalamaneuzze were three among many." I can't crosscheck that due to Foote's refusal to use footnotes.

    I think an experience like that may produce a quite different Longstreet. The experience was sobering and painful, but it didn't shatter him and fill him with grief like it did in OTL, so perhaps he'll become more compassionate. Seeing so many people, including Black slaves, losing loved ones or being subjected to cruel treatment may touch his heartstrings.

    I'm tempted to actually write about that, mostly because Jules Verne's Mystery Island is one of my favorites.

    "Look at dem, Yankee sons of bitches, now they be flying! What sort of critters are they, anyway?"

    I've been toying with having Burnside lead a North Carolina campaign. I'm not decided yet, but it's a possibility. In any case, Longstreet has made a profound impression in most Confederates, including Breckinridge. Since North Carolina has fallen mostly quiet, it's likely that Longstreet would be called to Virginia if the Army of the Susquehanna attacks.

    Could be interesting...

    Thank you very much! I'm really glad you are enjoying the TL :D

    The Civil War and the American Revolution do seem to stand up as events were relative moderation was maintained. This is not to say that there weren't massacres or murders, but while other Civil Wars and Revolutions ended in coup after coup, Reigns of Terror, Purges and Revolutionary Tribunals, in the US the system didn't collapse in such a way.

    Interesting. I got so used to the old narrator that this one sounds strange. Out-topic, but I like their series in Simon Bolivar.
     
  2. Ironshark Well-Known Member

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    Dec 11, 2018

    Especially casue there’s so much things that could have changed or happened differently

    One scenario I kept coming back to was the confederacy winning causing
    Todd Lincoln to stay in the military after the war and Robert e lee jr (after he grows up) using his father’s name to get into confederate politics

    Then some time later like a decade or so the union catching confederate plantation owners kidnapping free blacks from the north
    The confederacy refuses to give up said owners and contuines to smuggle in slaves and even selling them to some shady northern robber Barrons
    the union sends an army to the confederate border to arrest the plantion owners and the confederacy decides to conquer the north .a second war breaks out with general Lincoln and President lee leading the War effort of the two sides
    Eventually This all climaxes in Lincoln taking Richmond and finally reuniting the United States
    ..yes I known this all sounds like an young adult novel
     
  3. Cataquack Warrior Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2010
    You know, I just watched this interesting video about some of the ethnic groups involved in the Civil War - I was particularly intrigued by how Hawai'i was actually a hotbed for abolitionism at the time - and I'm wondering if there might be some butterflies related to that with the more radical nature of the war in this timeline; for instance, it might be interesting if Hawai'i's involvement on the Union's side led to a more positive relationship with the U.S. and maybe even joining up on better terms than what actually happened.

     
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  4. DTF955Baseballfan 12-time All-Star in some TL

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    Wow, that is really cool! This is why I say President Lincoln a list timeline would do well to get as many natives on his side as he can, the union faces a real struggle. I knew a number of natives did fight for the union, though others fought for the Confederacy, but I had no idea how many foreigners also fought for the Union. It is quite amazing.
     
  5. EmperorBasil Well-Known Member

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    Feb 13, 2018
    'Fraid you've been ninja'd about 3 posts above you.
     
  6. SenatorChickpea Well-Known Member

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    Oct 22, 2009
    Hawaii can't 'join up on better terms' because that implies it was the Hawaiians who joined up at all. There were plenty of native Hawaiians who had sympathy for some Americans, yes.
    There were Hawaiians who recognised the fragility of their independence and thought a good relationship with the USA might help, yes.
    There was not, however, any number of native Hawaiians who thought 'well, they've ended slavery- let's give them our land and encourage them to swamp us with cheap foreign labour that will make us a small minority in our own islands.'
    It's conceivable that the Hawaiians kingdom might have decided that full independence was not tenable, and taken the gamble that if they applied to be a US protectorate they might avoid the worst excesses of foreign rule. Something similar happened to the Cook Islands, whose Queen decided that the only choice she had left was French or British colonialism and hoped that she'd retain more autonomy under the British.
    But let's not sugar coat colonialism. Once Hawaii becomes a territory of the US, it is a group of islands full of people of colour with very valuable land. Their culture is going to be attacked, they are going to lose their land, they are going to lose any role in government.
    Just because a person is an abolitionist does not mean they believe in racial equality.
    Don't hope for a fairy tale of 'colonialism, but this time nice.'
     
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  7. Wet Coast Knight of the Dinner Table

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    This is something people sometimes overlook, even a raging bigot can be against actual slavery.
     
  8. Cataquack Warrior Well-Known Member

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    That’s a good point. What I meant though is that maybe Lincoln and/or a like-minded successor, having encountered Hawaiian abolitionists during the war, might favor a fairer policy with the islands, sort of like how Grant wanted to pass bills that favored positive relations with Native American nations. Not really sure if it’s at all realistic, but one can still dream.
     
  9. SenatorChickpea Well-Known Member

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    Oct 22, 2009
    Unfortunately, that founders on strategic imperatives.

    1. Hawaii is incredibly valuable naval real estate. Once the US looks to the Pacific, it has to secure the islands. This, in and of itself doesn't have to mean annexation- Pearl Harbor could conceivably have been a permanent lease. However, the flip side is that Hawaii can't be allowed to fall into the hands of anyone else, either.
    2. Far more dangerously for the Hawaiians, they're prime land for plantations. In fact, at the time it's probably the only basis for a working economy. They can't develop them competitively just with native labour, though. That means they either spiral into debt- and get bought up by foreign businesses who bring the great powers with them- or they open the land for foreign labor, at which they get swamped by foreign businesses. Crucially, just as in Samoa and Fiji, once foreigners are in the country even the ones who are somewhat sympathetic to the locals will still think that the islands will be better off under foreign rule.

    So that means as the US that you have a situation where the islands losing their sovereignty becomes more likely than not, so your best bet is to step in before the British or whoever else gets any ideas.

    The best case scenario at this late stage is probably that they end up like Tonga- technically independent, but a protectorate nonetheless with an economy dominated by foreigners.
    The other, less likely alternative is that you somehow end up with a New Hebrides situation. If the British and Americans agree on some form of joint administration- foreign residents, basing rights and so on- then Hawaii could somehow stagger on into the twentieth century and hope that it acquires some form of freedom when decolonization rolls around. But this arrangement didn't work in Samoa, and I doubt it will work here.

    Even in the best case scenario, the Hawaiians are going to be fucked over. It doesn't matter whether it's at the hands of the plantation owners, or 'benevolent' missionaries (who would probably be the face of any 'friendly' American posture.)
     
  10. Starfox5 CMII (2016) and Bar (2017) Donor

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    They could ask the British for protection. Cut a deal with them. Or, though that's risky, try to copy Siam and play the UK and the USA against each other to preserve their independence.
     
  11. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    Aug 4, 2018
    the king who still will be the king will never accept british soverintigty and being a british colony isn't exactly great
     
  12. Starfox5 CMII (2016) and Bar (2017) Donor

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    The Princely States might be seen as a better example to follow than the US territories, though.
     
  13. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    the britian won't due that in the pacfic though they are diffrent situation
     
  14. SenatorChickpea Well-Known Member

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    They did in Tonga.
     
  15. Wet Coast Knight of the Dinner Table

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    As others have noted, Tonga retained its monarch and most of its sovereignty. The treaty with the UK made it a protectorate and gave Britain control over Tonga's foreign policy and veto powers over finances but otherwise left it alone. For Hawaii I would imagine it would also include a naval base but I don't see why it would not be given the same treatment as Tonga.
     
  16. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    oh nevermind then
     
  17. SenatorChickpea Well-Known Member

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    Alternatehistory.com! Come for the timelines, stay for learning about actual history!
     
  18. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    knowing.jpg
     
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  19. Ironshark Well-Known Member

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    Dec 11, 2018
    So speaking about learning ...


    This is definitely a dumb question but during battles and such where would generals be at? On a horse watching things or behind there armies or?

    Like I keep hearing about (mostly confederate) generals getting sick and losing advantages because of it but wouldn’t they still have been capable of writing orders ?

    so there was some physical aspect /risk right?
     
  20. piratedude Pirate Lord of the Great Lakes

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    Sep 8, 2017
    That depends, partly on rank, partly on personal preference and what the terrain allowed. It would not be surprising to see a brigadeer general on foot afaik
     
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