Until every drop of blood is paid - A more radical American Civil War

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Red_Galiray, Sep 6, 2018.

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  1. Ironshark Well-Known Member

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    ita a good idea but racists manics are gonna racist manic


    IIRC the author said that they were ordered to not burn stuff...they did it anyway
     
  2. Knightmare Well-Known Member

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    Turns out green troops, high on adrenaline, tend to be a bit "loot and burny" when it comes to seizing a "Northern city" (Never mind it's in Virginia).


    In meridie est destrui!
     
  3. BP Booker Proffesional Liberal Partisan and Amateour Shill

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    Man, ITTL pro-slavery southeners are just living in another reality
     
  4. Kirook Well-Known Member

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    Which is different from OTL how, exactly?
     
  5. BP Booker Proffesional Liberal Partisan and Amateour Shill

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    Its a little bit more maddening because they're kinda getting away with more?
     
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  6. KidCabralista Cape Verde's Unofficial Wikipedia Meister

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    Don't worry - they'll be getting their just desserts soon enough, when Sherman and an army of freedmen burn half the South in the coming war.
     
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  7. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    Watch @Red_Galiray just kill Sherman:p
     
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  8. MorningDew suburbia is big gay

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    That's kinda the point. Both sides are way more hyped up than otl and thus the war and it's aftermath will be much different.

    iotl, Parts of the north, especially nyc, while still highly unionist, actively resented the war due to its economic affects. This is the primary reason the north was said to be "fighting a war with one hand tied behind it's back". But ttl the south (1/3 of the u.s. population at the time, and less than 1/4 if the blacks aren't counted) has not only cheated to ensure their dominance over the government but also desecrated the seat and symbol of the union. Even the most uncaring of the northern Democrats can't ignore this.

    The south is a lot more offensive ttl, and is pretty directly attacking the north on its own territory. While what Sherman did iotl was actually kind of an outlier, ttl the whole damn bunch is gonna be burned to the waterline
     
  9. KidCabralista Cape Verde's Unofficial Wikipedia Meister

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    I couldn't have said it better myself. The North now has the fire and the will to do what has to be done in order to break the back of the Democrat planter class for good. Sherman's total war will be the rule here, not the exception: it's needed if Lincoln's gonna make a more perfect union out of the broken nation at war's end. Gonna be a hell of a war to get there, though.

    Pic unrelated

    73249b1464d1bd6a1e0f5593c1c7a801.jpg
     
  10. TC9078 Empire

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  11. Red_Galiray En un pueblito al sur de Estados Unidos.

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    As far as I know, the Confederacy had no interest on moving its capital to D.C. It's whole raison d'être was being an independent and different nation. Moving the capital to D.C. would be difficult, put them in a bad strategic position, and look more like a coup than a war of independence. And yes, as some pointed out, the soldiers who burned D.C. were not ordered to do so, but did it out of their own accord.

    Damn, they discovered me! /s.
     
  12. Ironshark Well-Known Member

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    If you kill Sherman I swear
    I’ll write a strongly worded firm negative comment
     
  13. TonyA Curmudgeon like, but nastier

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    Well, if it's strong and powerful, we'll just have to agree...
     
  14. MorningDew suburbia is big gay

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    Reconstruction might be drawn out compared to otl. iotl 2 states after the war were over 50 percent black (south carolina and Mississippi). Ttl's total war is going to put a number on the white population of the south, so Alabama, louisiana and Georgia (40 percent black after the war otl) can be added to that number as well.

    Why does this matter? Well, the union isn't going to half ass reconstruction this time (relating to breaking the southern identity), but the idea of having blacks in the government is going to be an issue. The north iotl basically ignored the problem and let disenfrancement happen, and sadly nobody really cared. Ttl there is a distinct possibility of consistently having up to 10 black senators (and don't forget about the house of reps.), and (even though they would align themselves with the Republicans) that realization isn't going to go real well for the Republicans or Democrats.

    What this means is that politicians both northern and southern will fight tooth and nail to stop a black political block from forming (which involves delaying the southern states from rejoining the union), so reconstruction might actually be messier than otl. Lincoln was fairly progressive on race for his time, but even he (like most other northerners) believed in the idea of segregation. I don't think he will be able to handle the storm that brews when people realize "hey, we're going to have to have SUBHUMANS in positions of power once we wrap up reconstruction".

    Honestly it's really sad to look back and see what a horrible place the past was. On the bright side, a long-standing ttl black Republican block if achieved might help race relations once new generations are born and are used to seeing other races in power.
     
  15. piratedude Pirate Lord of the Great Lakes

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    Even of Lincoln personally doesn't mind them creating a voting block (through becoming closer friends with Fredrick Douglass, say) he won't be in office forever, and many elements of the Republican party wont be so radical as he may become
     
  16. KidCabralista Cape Verde's Unofficial Wikipedia Meister

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    Definitely gonna be a shock to the system but is it really that dire? Populist Republican "fusion politics" that put Black Americans in positions of authority alongside Whites was popular in places like Charleston post-war until the KKK literally had to engage in a campaign of extreme terrorism to break its back.


    Fusion politics or a TTL equivalent probably becomes very popular post-war here, considering its appeal to both poorer Whites and Black Americans with a populist message. OTL sections of the Republican Party were not only fine with, but optimistic about black lawmakers - here the radicals will have even more power, allowing for correspondingly more audacious gains for Black representation.


    Anyways, I think we haven't yet discussed one of the most major reasons that Reconstruction failed in our TL: the Supreme Court. Racists on the bench did a lot to undermine and whittle down the ability of the Fourteenth Amendment to serve its intended purpose, specifically in the Slaughterhouse Cases, US v Cruikshank, the utter disaster that was the Civil Rights Cases of 1883...by the time the disgusting travesty of Plessy v Ferguson came around, the court had already gutted any hope of federally defending the freedmen's civil rights. As the first two examples were both 5-4 decisions, changing a few seats or even one seat on the court could stop this sad miscarriage of justice before it starts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  17. piratedude Pirate Lord of the Great Lakes

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    Honestly, there needs to be an amendment ending the lifetime service of supreme court justices.
     
  18. Wolttaire Well-Known Member

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    wouldn't it also put a number on everyone? not just whites
     
  19. DTF955Baseballfan 12-time All-Star in some TL

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    Just read a Black History Month post on George Washington Carver linked on Facebook, and it reminded me of this. The soil, it said, was really worn out from overfarming of cotton, which takes a lot of nutrients out - Carver's greatest work was working with peanuts specifically to re-enrich the soil and sve lots of people from starvation once the 1890s hit and he began his work.

    A much more devastated South will have even more problems because the land had become nutrient-poor by this time. It will be interesting to see how that progresses int he future TTL with someone like Carver (I could try to take over after the 1870 or whatever date Red has to finish but I hve limited time to research and would have to use real people unless they couldn't possibly have been born a la "Turncoat Prince, etc. - and don't want to even promise for sure that I could, given I don't know what myschedule will be like by the time Red does finish).

    But, whether Carver or someone else, it'll see be very important for someone to develop these things. And, I'd really hope it would be him because I like the idea of black people becoming even more known in TTL for their inventions and things that are ignored OTL.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
  20. MorningDew suburbia is big gay

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    All of this is true to some extent.

    My point is, there will be a significant black presence in the FEDERAL government after the war. The northern politicians can't ignore that as much ttl because there will be up to 10 black senators CONISTANTLY that they will have to be alongside (not even counting the representatives.)

    Much of (white) society was anthemia to that idea so they would do whatever possible so that wouldn't happen, and preventing defeated states from reentering the union is a step that many would be willing to take. This throws a massive wrench into reconstruction.
     
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