Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

[Knightmare]

Guerilla fighters continuing to resist Union control and causing chaos in border states and homesteader states might anger them enough to keep going.

Maybe they'll set up black and Unionists militias to occupy the South and Eastern Midwest states. This way the South sorta starts policing itself and Northern soldiers can return home.

It's one possibility, though it might not really settle it down.

Now, moving many of the Loyalists and African-Americans out to the West, to fill in all those empty spots in the Great Plains.....

The traitors can keep their plantations. Good luck staffing them though.


In meridie est destrui!

 

[Red_Galiray]

We could have another large effort by slaveowners to capture escaped slaves in Cass County Michigan lead to a large battle with National Guard troops in Michigan or something lovely like that.

That sounds interesting. Perhaps Massachusetts, a center of radical agitation, would be a better choice. Though if the Slave Power's heavy hand reaches into moderate areas it might cause greater furor.

That was my point that it went even farther than our timeline like southern brigands head to northern cities and in the daylight raiding neighborhoods in mass raids u get the pictures

Maybe have it occur with one or two foreign diplomats being swept up, as in, they tried to stop it, ruffian clubs 'em down....


In meridie est destrui!

I can see Buchanan doing something like that...

Or worse, one of the foreign dignitaries is black and gets kidnapped.

The obvious option is Haiti, but as far as I know Lincoln was the first president that recognized them as a nation (source: The Fiery Trial). A Liberian, maybe.

The Union won't be fighting with one arm tied behind its back this time around.
The complete destruction of the Confederate Army will be a military goal as well as the trial and execution of all members of the Confederate government.
The only thing that can make matters worse for the South is if they adopt a scorched Earth policy, destroying all infrastructure in anything of value before the advancing Union Army.

We'll hang Jeff Davis from a sour apple tree!

The South bordered on delusional. Even as Sherman was marching through the Carolinas and Grant had Lee on the ropes, many believed that they could still win. They probably won't adopt scorch earth policies because they would believe they can take the land again. The North, on the other hand, may adopt those tactics to destroy guerilla resistance.

Has anyone noticed that Kansas is now a slave state TTL?

It's not going to be popular of course - but I see a civil war happening in it like in Missouri.

OTL was bad enough, TTL I don't know if I want to read how bad it's going to get during the Buchanan Administration. If Brenckinridge is still his VP, he is going to have so many problems in his administration it's going to make Pierce seem... well, okay, average. Won't quite make Pierce look good, but still...

As for Kentucky, OTL Lincoln said the Union must have it to survive, but I wonder if it'll be tempted to secede, too.

As stated above, though, the Union won't be fighting with one hand tied behidn its back this time. Fremont was relieved in Missouri for freeing slaves with his army, but he might not be TTL. In fact, THe Pathfinder might be told "If you want to do that, do it in Kansas," which wasn't supposed to be slave to begin with. We might see him continue as a general, which would create interesting butterflies itself. Fremont and Grant combining to march down the Mississippi? Or, more interesting, maybe Lincoln doesn't have the patience he did with McClellan OTL when McClellant lollygagged around in late 1861-early 1862. Maybe he'll replace McClellant early, before his disaster of mid-1862. Not that Fremont would necessarily replace him, but the chances of Fremont remaining in a meaningful command are much greater.

Of course, another possibility is that the South secedes early, they kept threatening to and I would imagine they do so more here than OTL, though I'm not sure. However, a more hevily Republican Congress in 18i58 might make thigns hard enough for Buchanan that he caan't do anything about their plans, and if they override a veto (such as repealing a Fugitive Slave Act early in 1860) you might see the South secede months earlier than OTL.

An especially interesting consequence is that Lincoln will probably be less disposed to tolerate Kansas and its government ITTL. He respected Maryland, Missouri and other border states and their rights, but Kansas is obviously a fraudulent and illegal government. A more radical Lincoln may demand abolition and immediate reconstruction.

Frémont is... quite the character, eh? I can't forgive him for what he did to Native Americans, and as a politician and a general he was often a failure, but at least I can admire his anti-slavery zeal. Him remaining in command could provoke a complete bloodshed though, especially if he goes forward with his draconian measures against treason, and the Confederates counterattack.

Especially with Kansas as a Slave State there is *no* way that the Senate will have a 2/3 vote to override any veto of Buchanan that is related to slavery.

The election of Kansas' Senators is shaping up to be another civil war of its own, because Kansas still has two competing governments.

 

[haider najib]

Formation of black regiments and continous of them in reconstruction, like everybody said is a great idea.

Question during reconstruction did southern unionist still have the vote? If they didn't and here it is given what would be the consequence of it?

One benefit of a radical Lincoln may be greater british support or interest in seeing the union win, this changes the confederation plans. They wanted/ needed european support, after all they kept trying to persuade britain for help. If the concentrates here don't see this as an option they could be more offensive as they will have to win the conflict on their own.

 

[James Ricker]

Now imagine how bad it would've been for the South. Every city would've been an Atlanta. Sherman and Grant giving no quarter until they surrendered. There would be no South by the time it was over.

Or the South does the burning, the Russians burnt Moscow before Napoleon could capture it.

 

[Wolttaire]

Serious kanas is a slave state the problem is that no one maybe not even pro-slavery people in kanas will recognize it this will lead to kanas not being settled because they will be at war with each other we could see native American flood into the state a mercenary or something and I think that pro slavery brigands will kidnap anyone who black and make them slaves straight away and is the update schedule going be like this from now on

 

[Wolttaire]

Or the South does the burning, the Russians burnt Moscow before Napoleon could capture it.

they did that in Richmond..... did not go well so this may make the common man rise up against the south in the south

 

[Kirook]

they did that in Richmond..... did not go well so this may make the common man rise up against the south in the south

I wonder if stronger anti-slavery sentiment will keep Virginia out of the Confederacy ITTL?

 

[Wolttaire]

I wonder if stronger anti-slavery sentiment will keep Virginia out of the Confederacy ITTL?

it was very close otl so that means we will have..... LEE! the only reason why the south did so well otl was because of it genius generals and without it that changges everything and this may push other border states into Confederacy and the union at the same time too. when it becomes about slaveyr

 

[Red_Galiray]

Serious kanas is a slave state the problem is that no one maybe not even pro-slavery people in kanas will recognize it this will lead to kanas not being settled because they will be at war with each other we could see native American flood into the state a mercenary or something and I think that pro slavery brigands will kidnap anyone who black and make them slaves straight away and is the update schedule going be like this from now on

What do you mean? I try to update somewhat often, but I'm busy with my own personal life, and other projects. Besides, research is necessary, so writing a chapter often takes a couple of days. Next update will be next week. Perhaps this weekend if something I have to do goes without a hitch.

I wonder if stronger anti-slavery sentiment will keep Virginia out of the Confederacy ITTL?

That could happen, but Virginia will be part of the Confederacy ITTL, because I need a long war to completely radicalize Lincoln and the North, and since Virginia it's the strongest Confederate State I need it to join the rebs.

 

[Wolttaire]

I find it funny that in this update the south is offended that he didn't let a city get sack and burnt

 

[Knightmare]

it was very close otl so that means we will have..... LEE! the only reason why the south did so well otl was because of it genius generals and without it that changges everything and this may push other border states into Confederacy and the union at the same time too. when it becomes about slaveyr

That and the Union officers being inept at best, and at worse, chickenshits.

As for VA going Confed... First vote failed, but then because Lincoln wanted to put down a open revolt, suddenly all the fence sitters changed their tunes, and voted to secede.

Here, they might just secede, or maybe not. Depends on their views. Maybe they see some sanity here? Long shot, but hey....



In meridie est destrui!

 

[Wolttaire]

In meridie est destrui!

he right the old south will have to be detrsoyed then brunt to the grown so somehting better can grow in it place

 

[Knightmare]

I find it funny that in this update the south is offended that he didn't let a city get sack and burnt

This is the South, their response to one of their delgates brutally attacking a fellow member of Congress was much the same OTL as it was here.

Then we have them threatening to secede like all the damn time....

And then we have their last "attempt at peace", which basically was "The North gives up literally everything":

Amendments to the Constitution
Slavery would be prohibited in any territory of the United States "now held, or hereafter acquired," north of latitude 36 degrees, 30 minutes line. In territories south of this line, slavery of the African race was "hereby recognized" and could not be interfered with by Congress. Furthermore, property in African slaves was to be "protected by all the departments of the territorial government during its continuance." States would be admitted to the Union from any territory with or without slavery as their constitutions provided.
Congress was forbidden to abolish slavery in places under its jurisdiction within a slave state such as a military post.
Congress could not abolish slavery in the District of Columbia so long as it existed in the adjoining states of Virginia and Maryland and without the consent of the District's inhabitants. Compensation would be given to owners who refused consent to abolition.
Congress could not prohibit or interfere with the interstate slave trade.
Congress would provide full compensation to owners of rescued fugitive slaves. Congress was empowered to sue the county in which obstruction to the fugitive slave laws took place to recover payment; the county, in turn, could sue "the wrong doers or rescuers" who prevented the return of the fugitive.
No future amendment of the Constitution could change these amendments or authorize or empower Congress to interfere with slavery within any slave state.[5]
Congressional resolutions
That fugitive slave laws were constitutional and should be faithfully observed and executed.
That all state laws which impeded the operation of fugitive slave laws, the so-called "Personal liberty laws," were unconstitutional and should be repealed.
That the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850 should be amended (and rendered less objectionable to the North) by equalizing the fee schedule for returning or releasing alleged fugitives and limiting the powers of marshals to summon citizens to aid in their capture.
That laws for the suppression of the African slave trade should be effectively and thoroughly executed.[5]

In meridie est destrui!

 

[fdas]

And then we have their last "attempt at peace", which basically was "The North gives up literally everything":

Well it isn't everything. The amendment does ban slavery in the territories north of 36 30

 

[Knightmare]

Well it isn't everything. The amendment does ban slavery in the territories north of 36 30

Which already had it banned, and there wasn't a lotta space to expand. It opens up literally everything south of Florida.

For some odd reason, combined with the South's fondness for Filibusters, it didn't really seem all that appealing to the Republican party.


In meridie est destrui!

 

[fdas]

Which already had it banned, and there wasn't a lotta space to expand. It opens up literally everything south of Florida.

For some odd reason, combined with the South's fondness for Filibusters, it didn't really seem all that appealing to the Republican party.


In meridie est destrui!

Didn't Dredd Scott legalize slavery everywhere?

 

[Red_Galiray]

Didn't Dredd Scott legalize slavery everywhere?

Dred Scott legalized slavery in the territories by saying that Congress has no power to take away slave property or forbid its entry into Federal possessions. However, states could still ban slavery. Nonetheless, the Supreme Court legalizing slavery in the entire country was a real fear, especially due to the Lemmon v. New York case.

 

[Knightmare]

Didn't Dredd Scott legalize slavery everywhere?

Technically, all it did was say African-Americans weren't citizens (Which would've had some fun implications for voting apportions), shut down the Missiouri Compromise of 1820 as unconstitutional, and said Congress couldn't free slaves within Federal territory.



In meridie est destrui!

 

[fdas]

Technically, all it did was say African-Americans weren't citizens (Which would've had some fun implications for voting apportions), shut down the Missiouri Compromise of 1820 as unconstitutional, and said Congress couldn't free slaves within Federal territory.



In meridie est destrui!

Didn't it also mean that someone could buy a slave in the south and then take it with him up north and the state he was in couldn't take his property?

 

[Knightmare]

Didn't it also mean that someone could buy a slave in the south and then take it with him up north and the state he was in couldn't take his property?

Yes. Which some viewed as well, only being a step or two away from slave auctions on the Boston Commons.


The fact that, at the time a good chunk of the SCOTUS came from slave states, well...... didn't help matters any.

In meridie est destrui!