Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

Great update! The point of revisionism and counter-revisionism was a pretty funny one to see. I remember reading some McClellan apologism in the 1920s-30s from some anti-Radical Republican historians. The historiography of this war would be an interesting one:
  • McDowell would be a martyr for the Union and since everyone in the pre-war officer corps liked him (including Grant and Sherman), they'd probably have everything good to say about him in their memoirs. Funnily enough, I actually imagine that he's treat like a Lyons figure from OTL, great potential but cut short, which would be subject to revision and counterrevisionism over whether Baltimore and Second Maryland were actually competently handled.
  • Hooker would probably be largely the same as OTL. Someone who helped build up the Eastern Army's army but dropped the ball.
  • Doubleday is a matter of: is he good or just lucky? Napoleon would of course say the latter is better, but Doubleday's critics (Meade, conservative officers and politicians) would probably argue that Doubleday was lucky in getting "glorious" assignments at Washington and Union Mills and that the more ugly and inconclusive slugfests at Mine Run and North Anna were proof of his mediocrity.
And with the removal of Johnston, I wonder how much better Cheatham will do? I know very little of this figure, but somehow feel that he will do worse, though perhaps not as badly as Hood in OTL when he fought Sherman.
Cheatham is widely considered the second best division commander in the Army of Tennessee, second only to Cleburne. He was a hard fighter and his career as corps commander was controversial. While he did have initiative in his first battle that only failed due to a lack of coordination on Hood's end (Atlanta, July 22), Hood's Tennessee adventure didn't offer many opportunities to distinguish any Confederate generals. There was the Spring Hill fiasco where Cheatham failed to block the critical road used by Schofield to escape an encirclement, but there was plenty of blame to go around. A more unforgivable event was Stone River, where Cheatham was allegedly drunk and got his division butchered in an attack.
 
Another interesting thing about Doubleday is that OTL, the idea of his having invented baseball developed, I think from someone who had served under him, when an attempt was made to determine baseball's origin in the early 1900s. He may have mentioned the game, but it was probably confabulated memory from age that caused the man to think Doubleday had actually invented the game. )

Here, he is more well-known, not just a run of the mill, nameless Union commander. It was this Doubleday myth that led to the Hall of Fame being put in cooperstown. I wonder where it would be in this timeline.

In 1845, Alexander Cartwright laid down the first modern rules that were similar to our game and his New York Knickerbockers were one of the first teams, though they played across the field in New Jersey, which is not a good place because it would have been totally wrecked by Hurricane Sandy.

Of course, who knows, history could change enough so Doubleday is involved in the game added slowly turns professional postwar, especially in trying to keep it integrated. And with Al Reach going to Philadelphia and Octavius Catto being involved, the city will certainly have some connection.

Maybe in this timeline, with Philadelphia having hosted the nation's capital for several years, the city will decide they want to keep being important and one way is to have the Hall of Fame of the national pastime in the area.

But, probably in a small community outside Philadelphia. One main reason baseball officials went for the Doubleday myth was so the Hall of Fame would be in a nice pastoral setting, not a huge city. In this scenario, instead of Doubleday's home town of Cooperstown, perhaps one of these cities would be good.
 
Grant now being in charge its like the John Paul Jones saying that famous quote of his. And sort of like a demigod arriving on to the battlefield and everyone can't help but notice the aura around him.

The rebel cause really going to die kicking and screaming now.
 
Grant now being in charge its like the John Paul Jones saying that famous quote of his. And sort of like a demigod arriving on to the battlefield and everyone can't help but notice the aura around him.

The rebel cause really going to die kicking and screaming now.
Can't do much kicking once Grant breaks their legs.
 
Politics is nasty business, and it's a little spooky how fraught with it the appointment of generals is in this war. But in the end, Lincoln was able to get the military fired up the same way he just fired up the political establishment. This summer will be very bloody, but it will hand the rebels a mortal blow.

The failure of the battle of Mobile is unfortunate- but it sounds like we're going to get a land campaign across the southern coast instead. Now THAT is something unique, time for Alabama and Mississippi to get introduced to Sherman's matches?

Nicknamed from the on, “Hancock the Superb”, the general seemed to be indeed an excellent choice due to his charisma and valor. Later events would however prove that Hancock was also imbued with superb shortcomings.
Well, this is a little worrying. Part of what cause the Union to fail to crush the CSA in 1864?

Would've been cool to see Doubleday, the hero of union mills and the colored troops, in charge. But I guess you can't win em all.
 
With the Union summer offensive on the way, I noted several things:
1. The Union army in Virginia is actually behind OTL schedule. By July, Richmond-Petersburg was already besieged IOTL while ITTL Hancock is in Fredericksburg and Lee in North Anna. Thomas' army, though set back by Marietta, is not that far behind Sherman's schedule, probably being at most 1-2 weeks behind.
2. Mobile is considerably accelerated. Mobile Bay took place 3 months earlier while the land expedition against Mobile, though a failure, happened an entire year earlier than OTL.

On Alabama itself, it was largely ignored for most of the war and was only ravaged by Wilson's Raid in 1865. Supposedly, Alabama was supposed to be the Davis' last ditch, but there weren't enough Confederate forces to even man the envisioned line. Alabama actually had considerable industry at Selma, propaganda value in Montgomery (first Confederate capital), the Black Prairie breadbasket that fed rebel armies and offered the rebels an invasion route to Middle Tennessee. Conversely, Alabama offered another way to get at Atlanta. IOTL Grant had hoped that a strike on Mobile could be made such that not only could a major blockade runner port be shut down, but also a march from Mobile to Atlanta could be possible, putting the Army of Tennessee at risk of a pincer. That said, Mobile was one of the most fortified cities of the war so perhaps Grant's OTL schedule for the Mobile operation was optimistic despite the small garrison during the war.
 
As usual special thanks to @Arnold d.c for helping me refine these military campaigns. And, I actually left the 4 year anniversary of the TL come and go. It's crazy that this TL has now lasted as long as the Civil War itself. I'll continue, don't worry. Thanks to everyone who has supported it and enjoyed my writing during this time.

ULYSSES IS HERE TO SAVE AMERICA!

The secesh are doomed now. Can't wait to see Grant's triumph!
Can't wait either!

YES! Grant has ascended! He and Lincoln will kick the confederacy to kingdom come!
Oh, the South will regret ever starting this war.

Tough words from the side getting their asses kicked.

An excellent chapter. ^^
The last thing they'll have is their pride, but that, too, will be ground to dust.

Election of 1868 is Grant vs Hancock.

Military Republican vs The Ultimate War Democrat.
Nah, I'm honestly expecting Lincoln to end up a 3 term president.
That's certainly a possibility still in the cards!

After a long day on campus, I see @Red_Galiray has decided to reward my hard work with an update, lol. Particularly interesting update I might add. Grant has risen to a suitable post, and both sides pause to reorganize. And with the removal of Johnston, I wonder how much better Cheatham will do? I know very little of this figure, but somehow feel that he will do worse, though perhaps not as badly as Hood in OTL when he fought Sherman.
Good work today! Johnston's removal is bound to be mirred in controversy ITTL as well. But at the end of the day Breckinridge needs a general that will fight. Johnston, who may end up fighting the decisive battle for Atlanta at Key West, is of no more to Breck than McClellan was to Lincoln.

Go Grant, Go Sherman, Go Thomas! Go forth and kick some ass!
They will, for sure!

What happened to Schofield?
After the defeat at Marietta, Lincoln decided that maybe having two competing commanders wasn't his most brillant choice. Because Thomas enjoyed the support of the troops and the commanders, he was restored to full control while Schofield was exiled. To where I haven't decided yet, but he's out of the picture.

Now that Grant has his turn in the spotline, I'm ready for Sherman to have his moment too. Even if its just him burning his way through Georgia
Bring the good old buggle!

A little, OTL slip-up right here ;). Otherwise a terrific chapter. Can't wait to see how Grant and Sherman put the Rebs in their place
Damn, I'll correct that! Thanks.

What fun! Grant is finally there and it sounds like Hancock will realize he needs grants help eventually. I think Grant can figure out how to handle him so he doesn't make him feel feel bad for requesting the help.

Even leaving aside the possible Marfam Syndrome, Lincoln was under a lot of pressure. I don't know if he would want a 3rd term health wise. However, maybe Lincoln with Grant as vice president would work. After all, If Lincoln has some times when he is ill then Grant can step in with Lincoln advising him on how to handle different things.

So in this time line Sherman will be known for marching through Alabama. At Least the tune to Marching Ahrough Georgia only needs one extra up down beat (Or whatever it's called) on each line where that is sung. :)

Grant to Sherman: " You may think I am imitating President Lincoln with this quip, but when putting together your battle plans, pretend Banks is not there." :)
That's my worry too. A Lincoln third term would be great but would it be in character?

A great quip about Banks lol.
And THAT is how you come back after a long absence! Well done!

Hancock will no longer be Hancock the Superb. He will become Hancock the Glorious... assuming he can reach a consensus with Ulysses.

I'm pretty sure Grant's strategy needs a name. The Cerberus Plan, anyone? I'm the imagining a Confederate cartoon where Grant is handling Hancock, Sherman, and Thomas as Cerebrus. Of course, I'm pretty sure any intended negative propaganda effects would completely backfire, and the Union will all be in for it!

To: @DTF955Baseballfan:

As long as they keep the tune! But perhaps it comes in both Alabamian and Georgian flavors? :)


Or to paraphrase TheKnightIrish, "We Want No Banks Here!" - perhaps one of the few things both Yank and Reb high command can agree on.

Also, @Red_Galiray: any strategic maps in the wings?
I'm kind of fond of using kinds of snakes for Union plans. Aside from the Anaconda Plan, in my other (sadly long neglected) TL an American Plan is nicknamed the Python Plan. Maybe this could be the Cottonmouth Plan? For fast devastating strike.

I'm a poor mapmaker. I'll see if I have something...

Besides, by 1868 Lincoln should be finished with committing the most 'heinous' (from the South's perspective) measures of Reconstruction; he's hanged the people he's had to, got freedmen on their feet and (presumably) worked out the problem of supplying them land, and has crushed whatever attempts at organised white terrorism crop up in the aftermath of peace. All Grant needs to do then is have the patience to let people come to terms with it, and the South is probably more likely to let things go if the President is the general who bested them on the field, rather than still being the guy whose first election was the reason they rebelled. The South won't love any Republican President, but the remnant of the planter class, particularly the military men most qualified to start up any would-be Klans, are more likely to respect (and/or fear) a graduate from West Point who showed brilliance, energy, and determination against his Southern counterparts.
That would allow Grant to run on a "let us have peace" platform too, given that after the war and early Reconstruction the people are bound to be tired and just want order and stability.

Besides - look what the war has done to Lincoln! Let the poor man retire and enjoy the rest of his life with the kids and grandkids! x'D

Seriously though, I do suspect Lincoln will become the Old Man of the Party during his post-presidency; he'll make sure his opinions are made known and will lobby to make sure that Reconstruction doesn't get unwound during the terms of his successors. But, other than that - I expect he spends a good deal of time reconnecting with Robert (how many of Lincoln's children are surviving this presidency?), helping the careers of his children, spending time with the grandkids, and writing his memoirs. I think a third term is the very last thing he'd want; both because he was aware of the precedence of Washington, but mainly because the Presidency had become such a burden for him during the war and though he wasn't wont to complain about it (he figured he was put there for a reason) I can't imagine that he's going to want 12 years in office.
I so want a scene of Lincoln touring Egypt, as he said he wanted to do.

Lincoln will probably retain a lot of sway and influence over the Republican Party. Akin to Jackson.

That would be less irregular than being in the Cabinet or VP, especially given that Supreme Court Justices often remained serious political players - like David Davis or Chase.

Great update! The point of revisionism and counter-revisionism was a pretty funny one to see. I remember reading some McClellan apologism in the 1920s-30s from some anti-Radical Republican historians. The historiography of this war would be an interesting one:
  • McDowell would be a martyr for the Union and since everyone in the pre-war officer corps liked him (including Grant and Sherman), they'd probably have everything good to say about him in their memoirs. Funnily enough, I actually imagine that he's treat like a Lyons figure from OTL, great potential but cut short, which would be subject to revision and counterrevisionism over whether Baltimore and Second Maryland were actually competently handled.
  • Hooker would probably be largely the same as OTL. Someone who helped build up the Eastern Army's army but dropped the ball.
  • Doubleday is a matter of: is he good or just lucky? Napoleon would of course say the latter is better, but Doubleday's critics (Meade, conservative officers and politicians) would probably argue that Doubleday was lucky in getting "glorious" assignments at Washington and Union Mills and that the more ugly and inconclusive slugfests at Mine Run and North Anna were proof of his mediocrity.

Cheatham is widely considered the second best division commander in the Army of Tennessee, second only to Cleburne. He was a hard fighter and his career as corps commander was controversial. While he did have initiative in his first battle that only failed due to a lack of coordination on Hood's end (Atlanta, July 22), Hood's Tennessee adventure didn't offer many opportunities to distinguish any Confederate generals. There was the Spring Hill fiasco where Cheatham failed to block the critical road used by Schofield to escape an encirclement, but there was plenty of blame to go around. A more unforgivable event was Stone River, where Cheatham was allegedly drunk and got his division butchered in an attack.
It is really fun to imagine what historiography looks like ITTL. Especially compared with ours. Like, "what do you mean McDowell isn't seen as a hero of the Republic?" Doubleday likely becomes something of a historic meme, especially if somehow the rumor that he created baseball remains.

Of course, who knows, history could change enough so Doubleday is involved in the game added slowly turns professional postwar, especially in trying to keep it integrated. And with Al Reach going to Philadelphia and Octavius Catto being involved, the city will certainly have some connection.

Maybe in this timeline, with Philadelphia having hosted the nation's capital for several years, the city will decide they want to keep being important and one way is to have the Hall of Fame of the national pastime in the area.

But, probably in a small community outside Philadelphia. One main reason baseball officials went for the Doubleday myth was so the Hall of Fame would be in a nice pastoral setting, not a huge city. In this scenario, instead of Doubleday's home town of Cooperstown, perhaps one of these cities would be good.
Doubleday could at least be a big promoter of baseball - hey, maybe he advocates for integrated sports.

Four Term Lincoln. Four terms!
With Grant and Sherman VPs
A little radicalism never hurt anybody. The Confederates don't count
Sherman, despite the memes, would be a terrible politician. Both for not having the necessary qualities, simply not wanting, and his politics being bad.

Grant now being in charge its like the John Paul Jones saying that famous quote of his. And sort of like a demigod arriving on to the battlefield and everyone can't help but notice the aura around him.

The rebel cause really going to die kicking and screaming now.
What differentiates Grant from the rest is that he's not afraid of Lee. And Lee knows this.

Politics is nasty business, and it's a little spooky how fraught with it the appointment of generals is in this war. But in the end, Lincoln was able to get the military fired up the same way he just fired up the political establishment. This summer will be very bloody, but it will hand the rebels a mortal blow.

The failure of the battle of Mobile is unfortunate- but it sounds like we're going to get a land campaign across the southern coast instead. Now THAT is something unique, time for Alabama and Mississippi to get introduced to Sherman's matches?


Well, this is a little worrying. Part of what cause the Union to fail to crush the CSA in 1864?

Would've been cool to see Doubleday, the hero of union mills and the colored troops, in charge. But I guess you can't win em all.
At this level, war is politics. They are inseparable, especially given that this is a democracy. The Union is lucky they elected Lincoln. Someone less talented could have led them to disaster already.

And yes, it's time for Marching through Alabama! It doesn't have the same ring, but maybe they will come a Georgia version later ;)

Oh boy can’t wait for Sherman to do his leisure walk through the South accompanied by the taste of Rebel tears
Rebel tears! The #1 recommended drink of the Union Soldier! Act now and get a free fried Atlanta Burger and Sherman Fries with purchase!
Sip-sip-sipping on rebel tears!
Unionists and freedmen get redistributed traitor land as a bonus.

My apologies, I believe I was lost in Texas.

I am currently reading everything that I've missed since the spring. :coldsweat:x'D
That explains it lol. I was really wondering where you were but at least now you have a lot to read instead of having to wait for my sometimes slow updates.

The irony of my tragedy is that anytime I come to the website I look for alerts, and I am watching the thread.
I just thought Red was busy with life all this time.
This system is sometimes so weird. I think it should also send a notification if a threadmark is added.

With the Union summer offensive on the way, I noted several things:
1. The Union army in Virginia is actually behind OTL schedule. By July, Richmond-Petersburg was already besieged IOTL while ITTL Hancock is in Fredericksburg and Lee in North Anna. Thomas' army, though set back by Marietta, is not that far behind Sherman's schedule, probably being at most 1-2 weeks behind.
2. Mobile is considerably accelerated. Mobile Bay took place 3 months earlier while the land expedition against Mobile, though a failure, happened an entire year earlier than OTL.

On Alabama itself, it was largely ignored for most of the war and was only ravaged by Wilson's Raid in 1865. Supposedly, Alabama was supposed to be the Davis' last ditch, but there weren't enough Confederate forces to even man the envisioned line. Alabama actually had considerable industry at Selma, propaganda value in Montgomery (first Confederate capital), the Black Prairie breadbasket that fed rebel armies and offered the rebels an invasion route to Middle Tennessee. Conversely, Alabama offered another way to get at Atlanta. IOTL Grant had hoped that a strike on Mobile could be made such that not only could a major blockade runner port be shut down, but also a march from Mobile to Atlanta could be possible, putting the Army of Tennessee at risk of a pincer. That said, Mobile was one of the most fortified cities of the war so perhaps Grant's OTL schedule for the Mobile operation was optimistic despite the small garrison during the war.
Given that the Union started with most of Maryland in rebel hands this result isn't too bad. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
 
It is really fun to imagine what historiography looks like ITTL. Especially compared with ours. Like, "what do you mean McDowell isn't seen as a hero of the Republic?" Doubleday likely becomes something of a historic meme, especially if somehow the rumor that he created baseball remains.
Given that the Union started with most of Maryland in rebel hands this result isn't too bad. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
When you put it that way, the Army of the Susquehanna would appear a lot less pathetic than the Army of the Potomac for actually taking Maryland (though historiography won't be as kind). Writing OTL events ITTL would make the Virginia Campaigns after the Peninsula Campaign looks something out of Isonzo. 1862-1864 is practically about breaking the Confederate line along the Rappahannock and Rapidan Line, with 6 separate offensives (Pope's initial push, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville, Meade's push before Bristoe Station, Mine Run and finally the Wilderness).

Another point on ITTL's historiography: A.S. Johnson would definitely have a better reputation than OTL. Although he did ultimately get crushed badly, he had some wins versus none IOTL. Another potential importance for his character is his status. I assume he's in a PoW camp awaiting trial? It would be interesting to consider how his trial would be used. A treason trial would naturally bring on the legality of secession, no doubt a hot topic for Reconstruction politics.
Speaking of Egypt, any chance butterflies could affect its development ITTL?
For those of us ignorant in Egyptian history, how did the US Civil War affect Egypt? I know Egypt benefited from the removal of Southern cotton in the markets and that a couple of Confederate generals (Sibley and W.W. Loring - not the greatest pair) were involved with the Egyptian army during the Egyptian-Ethiopian war but that's the extent of my knowledge. With the South even more devastated post-war and freed slaves in control of the plantation and farms, it would be interesting to consider how this would affect cotton prices. It's probable that freedmen aren't exactly too eager to grow cotton though it earn plenty. It could keep prices relatively elevated on the relatively slowdown in cotton export recovery vs OTL, which could in turn affect Egypt, though I'm not sure what they'd use the money for.

On a side note, if the Redeemers never take control, economic development in the South may not be as slow as OTL. The "colonial" economy created in the South did restrict many rural laborers from moving to industries and eliminated incentives for mechanizing Southern agriculture.
 
I can see Lincoln trying to empower local Republican/Unionist scalawags as much as possible to build a sustainable Southern Republican party organization in his Reconstruction instead of just appointing Northern carpetbaggers to dictate Southern policies like IOTL. Just remember that political carpetbaggers were and are NOT popular generally - this is also the case for appointed Northern Carpetbaggers - who lacked local support base and had to rely on federal patronage.
 
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