• Post made for three hours last night (9pm-12am EST) have been deleted. This was necessary due to some problems with server maintenance. Anyone who had problems logging into their account during this time should be fine now.

Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
He also changed several ambassador positions to countries in the Caribbean that had had Black ambassadors for nearly as long as the positions existed. Haiti being one of the examples I remember.
Wilson's completely needless acts of bigotry against African Americans were endless. One of the most glaring was the U.S. military. Freedman/Black combat units w/White Officers were common in the last 18 months of the ACW and it was the 10th Cav (Buffalo Soldiers) who saved Teddy amateur ass on San Juan Hill, but when the AEF got to France Blacks were prohibited from combat units (despite the fact that Entente forces had large numbers of "colored" (in the eyes of Wilson and his ilk) troops engaged in heavy fighting. The only troops Wilson would allow Pershing to release to the French when they were begging for help, were some of the Black battalions who were meant to be laborers.

Of course these men were welcomed with open army by the French, who had been tapping African Colonial populations since 1915, to Wilson shock. The U.S. segregated units then proceeded to be some of the best AEF forces deployed during the war, almost stupid brave and remarkably professional considering the were almost 100% recent conscripts (amazing what treating a man like an equal, or even near equal, will do).
 
Last edited:
To get this thread somewhat back on track, in line with the author's wishes, I hope civilians on both sides get some kind of compensation from the government after everything is over. Temporary tax breaks, low-interest loans, that sort of thing.
 
I really liked the most recent chapter, great little vignette. I think it captures, truly, the horrors of a civil war and why many men fight for a blatantly bad cause. The father fights and dies because that's the society he knows, the son fights because of the sheer brutality of the war which had been unleashed upon him.
 
Yeah, I was totally thinking of The Outlaw Jossey Wales when I wrote this.


The ex-guerrilla will probably be a stock character of westerns ITTL.

You know, this actually brings up an interesting point about how the Western, as a genre, will develope in TTL. If we see a greater emigration of Freedmen out of the South and into the West (of which there already was more than a small on in OTL) you could conceivably see the Freedman cowboy or rancher as a well respected figure (even if they will likely be side characters at first, in the more 'standard' Dime Novel and Westerns - though I wonder if you might not see a cottage industry of Western stories aimed specifically at African-American readers). if that's the case, then yes, I could definitely see the Ex-Guerilla becoming a major stock villain - especially if you have some of these escape out West and turn to banditry like Jesse James in OTL.

For some reason, I'm now imagining an in universe feel-good story: an Ex-Confederate soldier who saw the error of his ways, came to see the CSA as evil, and gave up violence, moves West and must take up his gun again to defend a group of Freedmen settlers from the savagery of an ex-guerrilla bandit. And since we're dealing with dime novels here, where it was completely okay to drift into highly-unlikely territory, the leader of the bandits was either the ex-soldier's commanding officer who never gave up the fight or *dun dun dun* his brother!
 
Depends if you count only soldiers or both soldiers and civilians, which can be tricky since you'd first have to determine whether they should be counted at all. In any case, OTL Civil War estimates are usually from 600k to 1 million dead soldiers. ITTL, they range from 1 million to 1.5 million soldiers. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The greater death toll is due to the harsher war, but also to the deployment of hundreds of thousands more soldiers to fight guerrillas and protect the countryside. Though the guerrilla warfare does claim more victims, the great killer remains disease. As for civilians, here it would depend whether you count post-war violence and famine as part of the Civil War toll. I think that yes, they should be counted. Neither section is fighting a war of extermination that targets civilians, but with large land areas devastated by war, guerrillas swarming the countryside, and civilian populations fleeing the combat or even being expelled by the armies, the civilian death toll is much higher than OTL. I think it could range from 300k to 500k civilians, most killed by hunger, disease and privation. They are mostly Southern civilians, though people in the Border South have suffered a lot too. This means that once the wounded are counted a grand total of 10% of the US has lost life or limb to the Civil War - an extremely traumatic experience that doesn't even take into account psychological wounds.
10%…ouch. That’s on the scale of world wars (a cursory glance would put it around what Yugoslavia suffered in WWII, for instance).
 
You know, this actually brings up an interesting point about how the Western, as a genre, will develope in TTL. If we see a greater emigration of Freedmen out of the South and into the West (of which there already was more than a small on in OTL) you could conceivably see the Freedman cowboy or rancher as a well respected figure (even if they will likely be side characters at first, in the more 'standard' Dime Novel and Westerns - though I wonder if you might not see a cottage industry of Western stories aimed specifically at African-American readers). if that's the case, then yes, I could definitely see the Ex-Guerilla becoming a major stock villain - especially if you have some of these escape out West and turn to banditry like Jesse James in OTL.

For some reason, I'm now imagining an in universe feel-good story: an Ex-Confederate soldier who saw the error of his ways, came to see the CSA as evil, and gave up violence, moves West and must take up his gun again to defend a group of Freedmen settlers from the savagery of an ex-guerrilla bandit. And since we're dealing with dime novels here, where it was completely okay to drift into highly-unlikely territory, the leader of the bandits was either the ex-soldier's commanding officer who never gave up the fight or *dun dun dun* his brother!
Now you got me imagining Wild Wild West but without the giant spider robot and other silly steampunk things.
 
Now you got me imagining Wild Wild West but without the giant spider robot and other silly steampunk things.

I have a feeling that the West in this TL is gonna be a bit wilder than in ours - and though that's not gonna be great for the people living there (especially on the Southern Plains) it may be great for future storytellers!
 
That was good vignette. You gave us a sympathetic Southern character (who may well go on to commit acts of distinctly unsympathetic violence).
Shows how ordinary people can get caught in the grinder.
 
That side story was... well, excellently written. Gave me chills.

As I said, I'd be happy to get book recommendations. Thinking about the Berg biography.

I loathe Wilson. He single handedly set this country (I'm American) back decades in race relations. Unfortunately I don't have any book recs, but if you have 30 minutes heres a video on Wilson from AlternateHistory.

To get this thread somewhat back on track, in line with the author's wishes, I hope civilians on both sides get some kind of compensation from the government after everything is over. Temporary tax breaks, low-interest loans, that sort of thing.

I doubt that will happen. Especially with bloodier civil war ITTL, which is scary given just how deadly the OTL civil war was. I think post WWII was one of the few times in history that the Victor's actively tried to rebuild their opponents in any meaningful way, and I'm not sure how possible that sort of thing would even be ITTL
 
I doubt that will happen. Especially with bloodier civil war ITTL, which is scary given just how deadly the OTL civil war was. I think post WWII was one of the few times in history that the Victor's actively tried to rebuild their opponents in any meaningful way, and I'm not sure how possible that sort of thing would even be ITTL
Well, this is a civil war, once it ends they'll all be American citizens again. Plus, well, the word Reconstruction is pretty telling.
 
That side story was... well, excellently written. Gave me chills.



I loathe Wilson. He single handedly set this country (I'm American) back decades in race relations. Unfortunately I don't have any book recs, but if you have 30 minutes heres a video on Wilson from AlternateHistory.



I doubt that will happen. Especially with bloodier civil war ITTL, which is scary given just how deadly the OTL civil war was. I think post WWII was one of the few times in history that the Victor's actively tried to rebuild their opponents in any meaningful way, and I'm not sure how possible that sort of thing would even be ITTL

Well, it's important to remember that the Union isn't going to just want to win the war, but the peace as well. Keeping the South as perpetually occupied territory wasn't the goal in OTL and I highly doubt it will be in this TL either - it really doesn't jive with Lincoln's way of thinking. What they are gonna want to do is reintegrate the South as a propserous (and loyal!) part of the greater Union. Also, the rebuilding effort is going to offer the best opportunity to really create a New South (to reuse the latter term from OTL) - this is going to involve a lot of help to the Freedmen, yes, but it's also going to mean help to poor white Southrons as well. Lincoln and his successors, if they really want to remake the South, are going to have to break the back of the planter class - and poor yeomen would be natural allies in doing so. So, I wouldn't be the least bit shocked to see Government investment in agriculture, industry and the like - and some comepnsation for those who were victimized by guerillas is certainly one way to do that. So I don't find it to be unreasonable (though, you are right that it will definitely be a break from how things usually worked post-rebellion up top this point)
 
Well, it's important to remember that the Union isn't going to just want to win the war, but the peace as well. Keeping the South as perpetually occupied territory wasn't the goal in OTL and I highly doubt it will be in this TL either - it really doesn't jive with Lincoln's way of thinking.

If Lincoln still gets assassinated, and there are anti-Union guerrillas in the South during Reconstruction, the military occupation could unintentionally turn into a de facto permanent one.
 
This is one of my favorite timelines I've read on AH.com so far. I love the detailed nature of it, how each update is just so packed with information. And the story itself is very interesting as the war escalates on both sides. And as a southerner who was indoctrinated into believing the lost cause myth, I greatly enjoy how it doesn't shy away from the fact that the south was the bad guys.

So good job, Red!
 
You know, this actually brings up an interesting point about how the Western, as a genre, will develope in TTL. If we see a greater emigration of Freedmen out of the South and into the West (of which there already was more than a small on in OTL) you could conceivably see the Freedman cowboy or rancher as a well respected figure (even if they will likely be side characters at first, in the more 'standard' Dime Novel and Westerns - though I wonder if you might not see a cottage industry of Western stories aimed specifically at African-American readers). if that's the case, then yes, I could definitely see the Ex-Guerilla becoming a major stock villain - especially if you have some of these escape out West and turn to banditry like Jesse James in OTL.

For some reason, I'm now imagining an in universe feel-good story: an Ex-Confederate soldier who saw the error of his ways, came to see the CSA as evil, and gave up violence, moves West and must take up his gun again to defend a group of Freedmen settlers from the savagery of an ex-guerrilla bandit. And since we're dealing with dime novels here, where it was completely okay to drift into highly-unlikely territory, the leader of the bandits was either the ex-soldier's commanding officer who never gave up the fight or *dun dun dun* his brother!

I mean, there’s already a pretty rich history of freedmen in the west: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_cowboys

But man, 25% was quite surprising! Maybe it’d be like 40-50% in this timeline.
 
A lot of the diehard grunts of the Confederacy might be made to come to arrangements where they go west, so that they can stay out of Uncle Sam's hair while he tries to rebuild the South. You might then also have a number of Freedmen or mixed-race couples that see the West as chance to build their own lives away from what discrimination remains in the East. Regardless of how often these two groups actually clash, they certainly make for good dime novel material.
 
Top