Until Every Drop of Blood Is Paid: A More Radical American Civil War

This can be done by threatening to trial them unless they escape. But I don't see his government rounding up Confederate leaders and shipping them off to Siberia. Though I would like to see some slavocrats shivering there, most of the Confederates who escape the country will probably end up in Europe or Latin America.
If they escape on their own, fine, but be prepared that they would write memoirs to spread ATL Lost Cause. But if they are captured, they should be sent to Russia like the way Napoleon was sent to St Helena, especially ITTL the choices would likely be between execution or exile.

IOTL, the news about Jefferson Davis' conditions in the jail managed to turn him into a martyr. ITTL, if we quickly ships him to Siberia, nobody would hear about him again, he would "disappear".
 
A permanent exile of high ranking generals and political figures is somewhat useless as it eliminates a number of speakers and proponents of the Lost Cause.
I disagree. The disappearance of many of the OTL champions of Lost Cause e.g. Robert E. Lee would have helped immensely - as all of these people were influential figures before and during the war. Exiles would work if the Confederate leaders go to place where they could not write and publish memoirs and writings - Siberia . They would rot in Siberia doing hard labour for Tsar Alexander II - and nobody would hear anything about them again.


On the other, due to having their liberty and chances of self-improved robbed, many Black freedmen were not really prepared to compete for office with Whites and had to rely on patronage (both state and federal) to gain political positions. In some states were Reconstruction's prospects are rather bleak, such as Georgia or Texas, Federal patronage may be the only thing that can assure a measure of social mobility and protection to Republicans, both Black and White. At the same time, patronage weakens the Reconstruction regimes and the unity and coherence of the Republican Party. In the long run, educating the freedmen so that they stand a truly equal chance in a competition for office may be the only solution
In states with sufficiently large black majorities, blacks would have greater chance to compete without Federal Patronage. For starter, they would be able to win a free and fair election on their own (without patronage or some other unsustainable measures like disfranchising ex-Confederates) by relying on their majorities.

Next, the fact that TTL State Republicans being dominated by blacks means that policies that help them such as freedman education or land reform would be more likely to be passed and implemented - since TTL Republicans would no longer be able to take Black votes for granted. However, since White Republicans would still hold the key positions of power, there is zero chance that they would throw whites under the bus. Result: everyone, blacks and whites, would be better off.

Finally, as I said, it would be much harder for White Supremacists to overthrown a Reconstructed government in a black majority state (with sufficiently large majority I mean) defended by black-majority state militia.

* Regarding sufficiently large black majority, I mean that the majority should be large enough that it would result in a black majority state militia/National Guard.
 
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I disagree. The disappearance of many of the OTL champions of Lost Cause e.g. Robert E. Lee would have helped immensely - as all of these people were influential figures before and during the war. Exiles would work if the Confederate leaders go to place where they could not write and publish memoirs and writings - Siberia . They would rot in Siberia doing hard labour for Tsar Alexander II - and nobody would hear anything about them again.
Frankly speaking, this reads more like a revenge fantasy than an actual option. There were voices (like James A. Garfield's) to exile Confederate leaders, but the idea of exiling them to Russia is incredibly uncharacteristic for U.S. leaders of the time. Exiles can help Reconstruction but the opposition to Reconstruction doesn't end there. Even if you dispose of Confederate leaders and their words, you don't get rid of the general opposition of the Southern white populace to an uplifted black community. While many high-ranking Confederate officials were voices for the push against Reconstruction, it's not like others cannot rise to fill that void. The First KKK was formed by former Confederate officers of low-rank and it had plenty for a recruitment pool in the form of dissatisfied white southerners who wanted to get rid of Republican rule.
This is basically my blueprint for Reconstruction in broad strokes. Also, measures must be taken to make poor Southerners accept the new order. It's not ideal, but some kind of political segregation could insure that White men are represented by White men, and Black men by Black men, reducing tensions and helping insure Black political representation. White southerners would find it much more objectionable to be represented or led by Black men, but if Black politicians only represent Black constituencies, then they may be more willing to accept it... knowing the alternate is being crushed by a bi-racial militia, of course.
True enough. Though one concern I have with this is that it will end with the same "Separate but equal" nonsense of OTL (and I'm sure many Southern politicians ITTL would be aiming for that with this system).
 
Even if you dispose of Confederate leaders and their words, you don't get rid of the general opposition of the Southern white populace to an uplifted black community. While many high-ranking Confederate officials were voices for the push against Reconstruction, it's not like others cannot rise to fill that void
Thing is, even to these days, words and memoirs of high-ranking, influential figures still carry much more weights, and thus would have more sway over people. I never say that only exiling them is enough, but it should be part of the complete solution package.

There were voices (like James A. Garfield's) to exile Confederate leaders, but the idea of exiling them to Russia is incredibly uncharacteristic for U.S. leaders of the time.
Russia and the US actually had okay-ish relations, and Tsar Alexander II also had good opinion about the Union, so Lincoln could certainly persuade him to make a deal on this.
 
Russia and the US actually had okay-ish relations, and Tsar Alexander II also had good opinion about the Union, so Lincoln could certainly persuade him to make a deal on this.
And there lies the issue. Why would Lincoln do this? In alternate history, there is an effort to at least mimic the thought process and characteristics of historical figures or provide justification in the case of a changed behavior. ITTL, Lincoln has more radical racial views, but he hasn't been made more autocratic or despotic in his treatment of rebel officials and officers. If I were to write a WW2 Alternate Timeline and changed FDR to be some genocidal nut and Churchill to be a cowardly fool with no justification, I would criticized by the folks here and rightly so.

Furthermore, there's the reaction of the American public to such a deal. Immigrants from Europe, especially the German and Polish '48ers, would be reminded of the autocratic repression they fled from. As for the North, I'll quote Treason on Trial, the "northern men and women looked at the Confederate leadership and saw unvarnished traitors. They harbored no doubt that Davis deserved to hang for the treason he had committed. But in their eyes, the United States was imbued with an exceptionalism in many regards, not least of which was the penchant for mercy, when societies in other nations would have sought revenge." For the South, the harsh punishment of their leaders would have made them martyrs, much like how Jefferson Davis' imprisonment rescued his reputation among Southerners. It seems to me that an exile to Siberia would have been a politically foolish and uncharacteristic move for Lincoln.
 
It seems to me that an exile to Siberia would have been a politically foolish
This is something a lot of people seem to me to be forgetting. At the end of the war, Davis was despised by everyone. That Black people of all regions and Unionists of all races despised him is obvious. But by the collapse of the Confederacy even his fellow Southern aristocrats despised him as more bereft of use and filled unto bursting with delusions than a stark raving mad Capybara and he was loathed by the poor Confederates with such ardor one would suppose that he had personally instigated the war, burnt Atlanta and Colombia, and forbade the building of canals and warm water ports.

Mere imprisonment within the United States sufficed to ransom his reputation from the depths of Tartarus and restore him a noble Southerner. With all respect, what can we suppose the effects of casting him out from his homeland, to bitter Siberia where the lights of civilization are dim and manacles of ice chain every one who endeavors to go forth from the isolated fortresses that homes must be? Would President Lincoln not be decried as an unnatural tyrant who inflicted the cruelest persecution on his opponent, who indulged a spirit of the most ferocious vengeance and sold his own countrymen to a foreign despot to be cast out into the cold and shown less compassion than is accorded to even the lowest dog?

(That's not my personal opinion of Siberia and I don't think that's what this would make Lincoln but that is how it would be seen I believe.)
 
@Red_Galiray it would certainly be most unrealistic under Johnston, but Lincoln is perennially the coalition builder, and I think he would see the long term enough to understand the value of detaching the cause of civil service reform from the cause of black disenfranchisement. If citizens that would otherwise be willing to be socialised to integration have no functional avenue to address their legitimate concerns and practice their rights, then they'll throw their lot in with the same lunatics that had just pulled them through years of Hell, to legitimise attacking officials and intimidating black voters. Addressing the flaws of the civil service can make the government more legitimate, which with make it stronger, and thus make Reconstruction faster and more solid.
You're completely right, of course. Corruption is a problem we'll have to tackle sooner or later, and Lincoln was quite annoyed at office seekers... at the same time, he made extensive use of patronage for political reasons (Republicans, after his election, said he couldn't be opposed because he controlled all offices). I do think Honest Abe would be more inclined to do something to assure integrity in Southern Reconstruction.

Liberal Republicanism was largely driven by the egregrious corruption scandals during the Grant Administration (like the Whiskey Ring), most of which had nothing to do with Reconstruction.
I meant that Southern regimes didn't care that deeply about civil service reform because they were fighting for their very survival.

If they escape on their own, fine, but be prepared that they would write memoirs to spread ATL Lost Cause. But if they are captured, they should be sent to Russia like the way Napoleon was sent to St Helena, especially ITTL the choices would likely be between execution or exile.

IOTL, the news about Jefferson Davis' conditions in the jail managed to turn him into a martyr. ITTL, if we quickly ships him to Siberia, nobody would hear about him again, he would "disappear".
Some kind of Lost Cause memoir is impossible to avoid. Ultimately, most Southern soldiers will want to believe that they fought nobly and valiantly, as a way to conciliate their bitter defeat. If it doesn't come from the Confederate leader it'll come from its soldiers, and we can't exile or execute every single traitor. The worst rebels, the leading traitors, must be dealt with harshly... they must be told they can either go to a port and part to Europe, never to return, or go to the gallows and part to Hell.

In states with sufficiently large black majorities, blacks would have greater chance to compete without Federal Patronage. For starter, they would be able to win a free and fair election on their own (without patronage or some other unsustainable measures like disfranchising ex-Confederates) by relying on their majorities.

Next, the fact that TTL State Republicans being dominated by blacks means that policies that help them such as freedman education or land reform would be more likely to be passed and implemented - since TTL Republicans would no longer be able to take Black votes for granted. However, since White Republicans would still hold the key positions of power, there is zero chance that they would throw whites under the bus. Result: everyone, blacks and whites, would be better off.

Finally, as I said, it would be much harder for White Supremacists to overthrown a Reconstructed government in a black majority state (with sufficiently large majority I mean) defended by black-majority state militia.

* Regarding sufficiently large black majority, I mean that the majority should be large enough that it would result in a black majority state militia/National Guard.
Well, I agree, it's just that only two states can end up with a Black majority, South Carolina and Mississippi. What about the rest, then?

Well one thing that doesn't sound out of place in the 19th Century US are ham fisted political compromises.
Indeed... I could see something like a compromise that requires Southern states to guarantee congressional seats and legislative representation to African Americans in exchange of an end to Federal intervention (except to stop violence, of course). That would not be complete justice (courts, education and employers would probably still treat African Americans unfairly and they and other Republicans would be relegated to a permanent minority), but in the long run if their civil and political rights are protected when populism sweeps the country, the consequences could be better. Besides, such an agreement would basically be a 19th century version of the modern minority-majority districts mandated by the Civil Rights Acts.

Frankly speaking, this reads more like a revenge fantasy than an actual option. There were voices (like James A. Garfield's) to exile Confederate leaders, but the idea of exiling them to Russia is incredibly uncharacteristic for U.S. leaders of the time.
Like I said, I think a semi-voluntary exile of several Confederate leaders can be achieved, but the government actually rounding them up and sending them to Siberia would make most Americans recoil in disgust, chief among them Lincoln.

True enough. Though one concern I have with this is that it will end with the same "Separate but equal" nonsense of OTL (and I'm sure many Southern politicians ITTL would be aiming for that with this system).
I think a more radical Supreme Court could decide that separate but equal only applies with regards to private interests (so, a store or bank can discriminate against Blacks as long as they have their own stores and banks to turn to) but not to public accommodations (transport, education, government services). Charles Sumner basically agreed with something like this, if I remember his Civil Rights bill correctly.

And there lies the issue. Why would Lincoln do this? In alternate history, there is an effort to at least mimic the thought process and characteristics of historical figures or provide justification in the case of a changed behavior. ITTL, Lincoln has more radical racial views, but he hasn't been made more autocratic or despotic in his treatment of rebel officials and officers.
I agree... I simply don't think Lincoln would act that way in any Timeline. Rounding up rebels and sending them to an "icy hell" such as Siberia seems like the work of a despot, not of a constitutionally elected leader. Furthermore, though most Republicans, especially ITTL, would not object to some punitive measures, the impetus just isn't there... most moderates would probably want to just move on and the radicals are more preocuppied with carrying out their agenda.

Would President Lincoln not be decried as an unnatural tyrant who inflicted the cruelest persecution on his opponent, who indulged a spirit of the most ferocious vengeance and sold his own countrymen to a foreign despot to be cast out into the cold and shown less compassion than is accorded to even the lowest dog?
Exactly. And remember, Breckinridge is more loved than Davis ever was. Not many people would object to the Union hanging the worst of the Confederacy, such as Forrest or the "Clawhammer", but executing or exiling Breckinridge or others who, in the Southern people's eyes, don't deserve such punishment could cause a second rebellion.
 
Well, I agree, it's just that only two states can end up with a Black majority, South Carolina and Mississippi. What about the rest, then?
Trying to encourage Blacks to move to pre-determined states that would be designated as black majority states; or, depending on the outcome of the war, carving up new states
 
Trying to encourage Blacks to move to pre-determined states that would be designated as black majority states; or, depending on the outcome of the war, carving up new states
It would be a bit much to have refugees undertake another mass movement to states and the last example of such a movement doesn’t bode well for a second mass relocation of freedmen and women. The Exoduster movement didn’t come for another decade.

I don’t think a successful Reconstruction is going to happen with a second relocation.
 
Personally, I think all the highest-ranking Confederates should be given a choice:

1. Make a very public oath where they swear allegiance to the United States, acknowledge the wrongness of the Confederacy, and support giving equal rights to black people. They would never be allowed any political, military, or judicial office ever again, and if they want to publish anything more controversial than a gardening book they'd need to run it through military censors first. They would have to live as private a life as possible, although they could be trotted out if they're willing to publicly support Reconstruction.

2. Permanent exile from the United States. They can take their money and possessions, but their land and property are to be confiscated by the government (with soldiers making sure none of it is deliberately destroyed before they leave). They would be free to go wherever they want, with the strict understanding they wouldn't be allowed to return to the country under any circumstances.
 
Oh man, I've just started reading this, and it has already become one of my top ten favorite TLs for several reasons.

1. The POD is not only unique, but really reflective of history, and how the most random moments can shape it. Some kook killing someone most of us never heard of and having it snowball is pure alternate history.

2. You've shown how the events in question can shape people. Lincoln seeing his faith in the establishment being slowly eroded even before Fort Sumter is being done in a fascinatingly realistic way. And Buchanan being the spineless kiss-ass that he was OTL, to the point where he was gonna imprison a man for doing his job, is also chillingly realistic.

3. You've explored what I feel is a very overlooked part of American history, the Lecompton Consitution, and made it even more explosive than it was. It is also frightening how tensions could've exploded to the point where the rule of law is not only being fudged, but outright stomped upon.

You've written a classic @Red_Galiray ! You should be proud.
 
Trying to encourage Blacks to move to pre-determined states that would be designated as black majority states; or, depending on the outcome of the war, carving up new states
I don't think what's basically ethnic cleansing would be a good option... either for the American leaders or for the future of the country. Lincoln, too, would opposse any attempt to reorganize the states.

Personally, I think all the highest-ranking Confederates should be given a choice:

1. Make a very public oath where they swear allegiance to the United States, acknowledge the wrongness of the Confederacy, and support giving equal rights to black people. They would never be allowed any political, military, or judicial office ever again, and if they want to publish anything more controversial than a gardening book they'd need to run it through military censors first. They would have to live as private a life as possible, although they could be trotted out if they're willing to publicly support Reconstruction.

2. Permanent exile from the United States. They can take their money and possessions, but their land and property are to be confiscated by the government (with soldiers making sure none of it is deliberately destroyed before they leave). They would be free to go wherever they want, with the strict understanding they wouldn't be allowed to return to the country under any circumstances.
Yeah, I think these are good options. I can see Lincoln going along with a program like this one, and it allows the government to admit back some recanting Confederates, such as Longstreet.

Oh man, I've just started reading this, and it has already become one of my top ten favorite TLs for several reasons.

1. The POD is not only unique, but really reflective of history, and how the most random moments can shape it. Some kook killing someone most of us never heard of and having it snowball is pure alternate history.

2. You've shown how the events in question can shape people. Lincoln seeing his faith in the establishment being slowly eroded even before Fort Sumter is being done in a fascinatingly realistic way. And Buchanan being the spineless kiss-ass that he was OTL, to the point where he was gonna imprison a man for doing his job, is also chillingly realistic.

3. You've explored what I feel is a very overlooked part of American history, the Lecompton Consitution, and made it even more explosive than it was. It is also frightening how tensions could've exploded to the point where the rule of law is not only being fudged, but outright stomped upon.

You've written a classic @Red_Galiray ! You should be proud.
Thank you very much! I really appreciate that you took the time to write this and I am glad you like this project!
 
It would be nice if there are 2-3 states with absolute black majority (I mean 61% or more). Reconstructed governments would last in such states, and you would need something equivalent to Federal intervention to reinstate white supremacy to overthrow those governments.
Last night I dreamed
That you were here with me
And we were in each others arms, it was oh so heavenly
You held me close to you and whispered in my ear
"Let's build a life together, share love beyond compare"

As we danced to the melody
We had so much to share (Then the music stopped)
In a flash I was all alone (It was just a dream)
Haunting me once again

A dream, a simple fantasy
That I, wished was reality
 
I don't think what's basically ethnic cleansing would be a good option... either for the American leaders or for the future of the country. Lincoln, too, would opposse any attempt to reorganize the states.

Reading about history, and you'll learn building ethnostates based on race or religion is never, ever a solution to social and economic problems.

Liberia was created to be a haven for freed slaves...and in a short amount of time, those freed slaves enslaved native-born Africans.

Pakistan was created as a haven for Subcontinent Muslims, and it has become a diet-Taliban madhouse.

Building a black ethnostate would not guarantee propserity for black people, and the leaders of those states could easily become nasty tyrants themselves.
 
Liberia was created to be a haven for freed slaves...and in a short amount of time, those freed slaves enslaved native-born Africans.
Important to note that by the time colonization came about Black Americans didn’t really share a common appreciate of the cultures of indigenous Africans. Sure there were things that the two groups shared, but the colonizing parties saw them selves as any colonizer – people bringing civilization to the savages.
 
Important to note that by the time colonization came about Black Americans didn’t really share a common appreciate of the cultures of indigenous Africans. Sure there were things that the two groups shared, but the colonizing parties saw them selves as any colonizer – people bringing civilization to the savages.

"Put an underdog on top and it makes no difference whether his name is Russian, Jewish, Negro, Management, Labor, Mormon, Baptist he goes haywire. I've found very, very few who remember their past condition when prosperity comes."-Harry Truman.
 
Ok, the discussion of where to relocate freed slaves reminded me of a comment I read a while back, and after looking for sources I found this report on Wetland drainage in the US.

https://water.usgs.gov/nwsum/WSP2425/history.html

Basically there is a large amount of swampland and the like along the Mississippi river and its tributaries, and in the period after the Civil War IOTL these swamps were drained and converted into farmland, and according to the report there are a few key areas where this occurred in the post-war South:

  • The prairie pothole wetlands of western Minnesota, northern Iowa, and North and South Dakota
  • The bottom lands of Missouri and Arkansas in the lower Mississippi River alluvial plain
  • The delta wetlands of Mississippi and Louisiana

  • The gulf plains of Texas

The two important ones for this idea are bolded.

So, what if, in the aftermath of the Civil War, there is a large scale series of improvements along the Lower Mississippi that convert these wetlands into farmland, with the labor being seen as a way to provide Freed slaves with a source of income that will, once the project is complete, also give them farmlands of their own that, importantly from the perspective of racist whites in the north who dislike slavery but don't want black neighbors and the politicians they vote for, keeps them in the south.

According to Wikipedia, Louisiana was at 46.9% slave in 1860, would this program soaking up freed slaves from other states produce a small majority for the black population in the state?

Arkansas is at 25.5%, so no go in making it majority black unless the war kills a lot of southern whites, or a lot flee "black rule" or some combination of both

Mississippi is already 55.2% slave, so that makes it black majority already unless something truly horrible happens.

So really, in the end this project might only accomplish making one more state black majority, but in terms of ensuring a reconstruction that survives and giving blacks influence at the federal level, that's not nothing.
 
According to Wikipedia, Louisiana was at 46.9% slave in 1860, would this program soaking up freed slaves from other states produce a small majority for the black population in the state?

Arkansas is at 25.5%, so no go in making it majority black unless the war kills a lot of southern whites, or a lot flee "black rule" or some combination of both

Mississippi is already 55.2% slave, so that makes it black majority already unless something truly horrible happens.

So really, in the end this project might only accomplish making one more state black majority, but in terms of ensuring a reconstruction that survives and giving blacks influence at the federal level, that's not nothing.
Louisiana, Mississippi, and South Carolina were the 3 states with a majority or near majority Black population in 1860. By 1870 Florida, Alabama, and Georgia Black people were at about parity with the white population. Virginia hovered near or around 45% until the end of the 19th century.

Lincoln could also have Alexandria be ceded back to DC, as a bunch of freedmen who crossed Union lines OTL came to Alexandria.
 
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