Unpopulated Americas

Valdemar II

Banned
If I remember correctly there was three Indian and inuit wave to America. the first one was in 10000-8000 Bc the second two was in 4000 and 3000 (inuits) BC. There was quite few members of these migrations, so it's unlikely they would have big effect if they stayued in Siberia.
Beside that there seem to have been a minor migration wave from Europe, which was overrun by the proto-Indians.

What would happen if these failed. Likely the Norse would have started colonised around 1000, likely many area would still be unsettled by 1500, but most of the east coast of America would have been settle by then, some plant would likely be domesticated, the potatoes (the Andean would likely be settle surprisingly fast) and beans is almost unavoideble, while mais wouldn't, likely we also see some domestication of wild rice (the Norse lacked tropical and subtropical crops). Much of the old megafauna would likely survive, primary because European expansion into the plain region and inland tropical and subtropical areas would be rather slow (Amazonas would likely still be almost devoid of Humans by 1500, through the plains would likely have a begining semi-nomadic herder society).
 
I just can't see the Americas remaining unpopulated.

Suppose you had some wild geological POD that prevented anyone from crossing the Bering Strait (and just how are you going to manage THAT?).

OTL, you probably had dozens of boats of one sort or another blown across the Atlantic. They made no difference, 'cause they disappeared into the local population. Well, if there isn't a local population, and there is a fertile woman on board (which, I agree, many won't have), the Americas are now populated.

The Norse made it to 'Vinland', 1000AD and only gave up 'cause the natives were too much for their small group.

The Polynesians introduced chickens to south America ~1300? They would have stayed, if there weren't anyone else.

Plus you've got e.g. Japanese or Korean fishermen blown way off course.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I just can't see the Americas remaining unpopulated.

Suppose you had some wild geological POD that prevented anyone from crossing the Bering Strait (and just how are you going to manage THAT?).

OTL, you probably had dozens of boats of one sort or another blown across the Atlantic. They made no difference, 'cause they disappeared into the local population. Well, if there isn't a local population, and there is a fertile woman on board (which, I agree, many won't have), the Americas are now populated.

The Norse made it to 'Vinland', 1000AD and only gave up 'cause the natives were too much for their small group.

The Polynesians introduced chickens to south America ~1300? They would have stayed, if there weren't anyone else.

Plus you've got e.g. Japanese or Korean fishermen blown way off course.

I find it likely the Andean would already be (thinly) populated by that time by the Norse, but likely so thinly that the Polynesian could also settle there (especially because the Norse would live mostly in the highlands), so I could see some kind of Polynesians-Norse culture being born there.
 
so I could see some kind of Polynesians-Norse culture being born there.
Which would of course be the very definition of awesomeness :).

I suspect many ships that were blown across would have no fertile women on board. Furthermore, if any ships landed and anyone managed to get back to Europe (or Africa) everyone would think that the lands they found were small-ish islands with no people...which would thus not be terribly interesting. Since the Norse did bring women, they would have first grab at the continent...perhaps they would not stay in the far North like I first suggested, but I find it hard to imagine such a small group actually bothering to go as far as the Andes. Virginia I can see, or the Mississippi river area, but why would these norsemen, used to cold weather and alone on a new, empty continent, bother to trek through the jungles of Central America, in which they would have no interest and no guidance, in time to find the Andes and meet up with the Polynesians?

I suspect the Norse would settle the temperate parts of North America as quickly as they can reproduce, and even if there were few females in the first group there would be plenty in the second generation. However, the Norse don't have time to do in three or four hundred years what the American Indians did in ten thousand. Now, coastal exploration is a possibility, but that would A. take forever, B. not likely include many women, and C. not be worthwhile for a people barely ekeing by, and then slowly beginning to suceed, on an empty continent where any man who wants his own land only has to kill the animals and move in.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Why wouldn't they? Rich Europeans are perfectly fine exploiting poor Europeans, after all. It could end up being like the English-Irish relationship, with New Worlders seen as being inherently foul and low class, fit for mere labour and nothing else.
I keep wondering what would happen if Henry Hudson encountered Vikings instead of Indians, suppose the Vikings were cut off, but survived, and suppose they liked it on the east coast of North America and could care less for going back to their cold homeland, the Vikings could have their own Thanes here, they could forge steel weapons and start their own Kingdoms. What if one of those kingdoms happened to be in the Hudson Valley in New York, what if a Viking Village was located on the Island of Manhattan, and what if they were still pagan.

Henry Hudson sails past Manhattan and sees a Viking village with longboats and farms, domesticated bison, and native North American horses that did not become locally extinct. The Vikings speak a dialect of Old Norse, what sort of reception would they give Henry Hudson?

How about a Viking "Pocahontas"? The Vikings don't worhips Indian gods, they worship Thor and Odin. One thing the Englishmen might have trouble doing is distinguising themselves from the Vikings. The Vikings could learn English, their Children could then speak it just like the English colonists, though the English would likely learn Old Norse as well for communication purposes.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
If it empty the first settlement of OTL will survive and spread rather fast, they will continue to trade with Europe, with the primary import in the first 50 years being thralls (mostly females), which will result in a explosive growth, a doubling every generation (20 years) is the low end scenario (and that's without migration), and coastal areas will be settle first, simply because it's easier which will mean a fast put thinly spread, but when they hit the tropic, they will seek up in the highlands, whenever possible, which is better areas for European settlements.

The first settlement around 1000 will have around 100 inhabitants, if it's succesfull, more Norse will emigrate, so my guess we have around 10000 in 1100, with a natural doubling of that every 20 years in 1200 we have 320000, in 1300 around 10 millions from there the expansion will slow down and only double every century, simply because the best land has been occupied. My guess is with the Norse agricultural packet the Americas has a natural population of around 100-150 millions, through that packet will improve.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I keep wondering what would happen if Henry Hudson encountered Vikings instead of Indians, suppose the Vikings were cut off, but survived, and suppose they liked it on the east coast of North America and could care less for going back to their cold homeland, the Vikings could have their own Thanes here, they could forge steel weapons and start their own Kingdoms. What if one of those kingdoms happened to be in the Hudson Valley in New York, what if a Viking Village was located on the Island of Manhattan, and what if they were still pagan.

Henry Hudson sails past Manhattan and sees a Viking village with longboats and farms, domesticated bison, and native North American horses that did not become locally extinct. The Vikings speak a dialect of Old Norse, what sort of reception would they give Henry Hudson?

How about a Viking "Pocahontas"? The Vikings don't worhips Indian gods, they worship Thor and Odin. One thing the Englishmen might have trouble doing is distinguising themselves from the Vikings. The Vikings could learn English, their Children could then speak it just like the English colonists, though the English would likely learn Old Norse as well for communication purposes.

Henry Hudson and Christopher Columbus won't happen, and a majority of Norse Americans would likely be Christian, and well known to Europe*. In OTL Leif "den Lykkelige" converted to Christianity before he settled a colony in America.

*so no Columbus looking for short cut to China, through he may have looked for a short cut to Vinland instead, to get rid of the Icelandic monopol.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Henry Hudson and Christopher Columbus won't happen, and a majority of Norse Americans would likely be Christian, and well known to Europe*. In OTL Leif "den Lykkelige" converted to Christianity before he settled a colony in America.

*so no Columbus looking for short cut to China, through he may have looked for a short cut to Vinland instead, to get rid of the Icelandic monopol.
Probably by 1500, they would be more civilized Norsemen and women, farmers, traders, probably wouldn't cruise in Viking Longships anymore and wouldn't be strictly speaking Vikings either. The would probably settle up and down the East Coast of North America and immigrants from different parts of Europe would settle and learn Norse.

Farming, what would the Norsemen farm? Cotton perhaps? They would probably do fur trapping, and Elephant hunting, Ivory tusks are worth something in Europe. What would the relationship of the Norse Colonies be with the mother countries, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, and Iceland? Sooner or later they will encounter some Spaniards, probably some black slaves will be brought it, Sugar from the carribean would be a major export. Tobacco would be some weed. The Norse are interested in finding about gold of course, plenty of lumber for building ships. Some Norse might return to piracy, but in larger ships, maybe plunder some Spanish Galleons.
 
I just can't see the Americas remaining unpopulated.

Suppose you had some wild geological POD that prevented anyone from crossing the Bering Strait (and just how are you going to manage THAT?).

OTL, you probably had dozens of boats of one sort or another blown across the Atlantic. They made no difference, 'cause they disappeared into the local population. Well, if there isn't a local population, and there is a fertile woman on board (which, I agree, many won't have), the Americas are now populated.

The Norse made it to 'Vinland', 1000AD and only gave up 'cause the natives were too much for their small group.

The Polynesians introduced chickens to south America ~1300? They would have stayed, if there weren't anyone else.

Plus you've got e.g. Japanese or Korean fishermen blown way off course.

Quoted for truth. I'm glad someone else said it.

Polynesian DNA has been found in three tribes, in British Columbia, Mexico, and Ecuador. If there are no Indians (which is completely ASB), they populate America.

Not the Vikings, sorry. What was in Newfoundland was just a single winter village which had less than 100 people.

Afro Phoenicians may also have populated the Caribbean. There's Spanish accounts of them in Haiti, Panama, Yucutan, and what is today near Brownsville Texas, all prior to Spanish bringing in African slaves. So it's likely they that Columbus meets and goes to war against.

Pizarro, OTH, probably meets up with Polynesians.

Again, all of this assumes no Indians, which is ASB for two reasons. They probably came in ships, not by the BS Strait anyway. The BS Theory has far more evidence against it than for it, and about half of all scholars don't agree with it anymore.

(To a large extent it became dogma using intimidation, the ruining of careers of almost anyone who dared to disagree with it by the Clovis Mafia, as they were commonly referred to.)

And if there was not that first migration as far back as 40,000 years or more, you've still got a second one, Athapascans and Inuit @ 1000-2000 years ago.

Really, so many people treat the Americas like there was some kind of magical force field around it in between the BS Strait closing and the Vikings visit.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
Quoted for truth. I'm glad someone else said it.

Polynesian DNA has been found in three tribes, in British Columbia, Mexico, and Ecuador. If there are no Indians (which is completely ASB), they populate America.

Not the Vikings, sorry. What was in Newfoundland was just a single winter village which had less than 100 people.

Afro Phoenicians may also have populated the Caribbean. There's Spanish accounts of them in Haiti, Panama, Yucutan, and what is today near Brownsville Texas, all prior to Spanish bringing in African slaves. So it's likely they that Columbus meets and goes to war against.

Pizarro, OTH, probably meets up with Polynesians.

Again, all of this assumes no Indians, which is ASB for two reasons. They probably came in ships, not by the BS Strait anyway. The BS Theory has far more evidence against it than for it, and about half of all scholars don't agree with it anymore.

(To a large extent it became dogma using intimidation, the ruining of careers of almost anyone who dared to disagree with it by the Clovis Mafia, as they were commonly referred to.)

And if there was not that first migration as far back as 40,000 years or more, you've still got a second one, Athapascans and Inuit @ 1000-2000 years ago.

Really, so many people treat the Americas like there was some kind of magical force field around it in between the BS Strait closing and the Vikings visit.
Your probably right, human beings got to alot of places except Antartica and the Canary Islands. Are you aware that when the Spaniards and Portugese discovered the Canary Islands, they had no natives? The Canaries were completely uninhabited when the first Europeans arrived, this is Probably where Harry Tutledove got his idea for the Atlantis series, he imagined something like, what if the Canaries were a continent instead of an island chain?

Its interesting to think about what an uninhabited America would be like, sort of like a Lost World in fact. If there really were a Lost World out there, humans would probably get to that Lost World long before there was any recorded history. ASBing it, is one way to get an uninhabited America, just ISOT the Americas from 100,000 years ago to 1492, and that would do the trick nicely. Is it realistic, probaby not, unless were talking about a Matrix and somebody reprograms it, then anything is possible within that framework.
 
Wasn't there a mention of the finding of a X strain of DNA found in modern Ojibwe (aka Chippewa) people that matches an extinct group of people called Solutrians in Europe ?
 
Wasn't there a mention of the finding of a X strain of DNA found in modern Ojibwe (aka Chippewa) people that matches an extinct group of people called Solutrians in Europe ?

The Solutrean Hypothesis is the idea that a European population migrated along the icepack from Europe to America about 20,000 years ago. Although some htink that the sea ice at the time would have made this difficult.

Haplogroup X is present among many Algonquian-speaking peoples especially those around the Great Lakes. Which is odd because the Algonquian languages came from the west.
 
Polynesian DNA has been found in three tribes, in British Columbia, Mexico, and Ecuador. If there are no Indians (which is completely ASB), they populate America.
--Snip--
Not the Vikings, sorry. What was in Newfoundland was just a single winter village which had less than 100 people.

When did they find the Polynesian DNA? I've been looking up the contacts between Polynesians and America, and haven't seen that one.

With the Vikings, there may be some of them there. As stated the Vikings were run off due to the Native Indians. With more recent colonization from Polynesians, and Inuit, and maybe a handful of others, the Vikings may have been able to get in while the opposition is still thin in their area.
The Polynesians would mostly be in South and Central America. The Inuit would probably move south along the Pacific coast and down into the Prairies, as long as there is no or very little competition there, if you have bountiful fishing, plants and animals in the unpopulated south and bountiful snow and ice in the North why would the majority stay up North? Some would definitely continue on in the North, but the majority? Also in OTL the Inuit had only reached Greenland a few hundred years before the Vikings, so thinking that they would populate the entire North East coast in large enough numbers to keep interested Vikings away while possible, would require a lot of luck.
Also if any Africans came over they'd probably start off in the Caribbean due to the ocean currents, not up North. Depending on when they get there they could be living in territory the Vikings would reach, just getting there, or still be in the south.
Finally any Asian or European fishermen would be lacking in women, they'd likely either die out in a generation, or be very small and probably inbred.
So the Vikings though being late comers would have a chance. And considering the population and political pressure in the Nordic countries (why else would they go to Iceland and Greenland), having a rich, warm, sparsely populated land would be incentive enough for a lot of the younger and poorer Norse eking a living out of snowy poor lands, knowing their brothers will inherit most of the farm, to get up a move.
 
The Solutrean Hypothesis is the idea that a European population migrated along the icepack from Europe to America about 20,000 years ago. Although some htink that the sea ice at the time would have made this difficult.

Haplogroup X is present among many Algonquian-speaking peoples especially those around the Great Lakes. Which is odd because the Algonquian languages came from the west.
I suspect that a few 'causasians' (proto-turks or something) traveled with the ancestors of the 'Indians' to North America. IIRC, the 'European' type is consistent with a split from Europe some 13kya.
 
Yeah, I also agree with the Polynesians. Its really impossible to keep people out of America, and once people are in a big newly discovered place the spread fast. Like really really fast, at max only a few thousand years to go from one end of the Americas to another, if they're hunter gatherers. i have no idea about agriculturalists.
 

Tom Kalbfus

Banned
I suspect that a few 'causasians' (proto-turks or something) traveled with the ancestors of the 'Indians' to North America. IIRC, the 'European' type is consistent with a split from Europe some 13kya.
What would happen if you split North America in Two, say down the middle. The paleo-indians can come across the Bering Straight, but they are stopped by the intracontinental water way, meanwhile Clovis people follow the ice packs and establish themselves on the Eastern part of the continent. Lets make the eastern part just as far from Europe as the eastern part of North America OTU, but slide the western half of the continent a little farther to the west, maybe even smoosh it against Siberia so that its one continuous landmass. Put the splitting point at around where the Mississippi River basin would be, what would likely happen then?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Kalbfus
Are you aware that when the Spaniards and Portugese discovered the Canary Islands, they had no natives?

But the Guanches?

Perhaps Mr. Kalbfus means the Azores, which were not populated when discovered by Europeans.
 
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