United States of the Americas and Oceania

Emperor Sun · May 21, 2010

Britain

I feel like this has probably been mentioned before, but is there hope for the British Isles to eventually join the USAO? Maybe it's just because I can't imagine such a timeline without the eventual complete unification of the entire Anglosphere, but I could see several scenarios in which this could happen.

Eurofed · May 23, 2010

Emperor Sun said:
I feel like this has probably been mentioned before, but is there hope for the British Isles to eventually join the USAO? Maybe it's just because I can't imagine such a timeline without the eventual complete unification of the entire Anglosphere, but I could see several scenarios in which this could happen.

This is certainly a plausible and quite possible development.

Its eventual fulfillment depends on how I decide to stage the Gotterdammerung of the British Empire.

Emperor Sun · May 25, 2010

Sounds good. I guess the loss of popular support would make the whole ordeal easier?

(PS: Go China! Fingers crossed that they survive to become a powerful eastern state somehow)

Eurofed · May 27, 2010

Emperor Sun said:
Sounds good. I guess the loss of popular support would make the whole ordeal easier?

Well, tentatively I would expect that it is the result of Britain finding itself into a 1945 situation.

(PS: Go China! Fingers crossed that they survive to become a powerful eastern state somehow)

I make no promises, but I say that this is a very plausible scenario.

vultan · May 27, 2010

This is one of my favorite TLs on the board, Eurofed. I absolutely love it! Keep up the good work, man.

Vosem · May 31, 2010

So, Eurofed, when's the next update coming?

Eurofed said:
Again, you may check on the "Vive La Revolution" TL to get an idea of the kind of changes and extra detail could get added to a future revised version of USAO. Although not all the changes introduced to VLR are appropriate for or compatible with USAO, some would be, since VLR got the benefit of extra development. At the moment, I am not really willing or foresee the need to give the TL more development than that.

One of the TLs I most admire is Jared's Decades of Darkness, which is written, very detailed-ly, in a style where he about half the time takes excerpts out of works written in the TL, and the other half is written from the point of view of actual characters within the novel. What I was talking about was fleshing out your TL in a similar way.

Eurofed · Jun 28, 2010

As per the request of our official cartographer, I'm reposting the TL map here for archival purposes:

The World Throughout the History of the United States of the Americas, Africa, and Oceania

American Blue being Free States, Dark American Blue being Slave States, Light American Blue Territories, and Pale American Blue being Sattelite States.

The World in 1808:

The World in 1811:

The World in 1816:

The World in 1827:

The World in 1836:

The World in 1842:

The World in Early 1857

The World in Late 1857:

The World in 1858:

The World in 1859

The World in 1860:

The World in 1861:

mikegold · Jun 28, 2010

I only see 1858 and 59.

Eurofed · Jun 28, 2010

mikegold said:
I only see 1858 and 59.

I dunno, the maps show up nice both on my home laptop and office desktop, filter and all.

Aranfan · Jun 28, 2010

They all look fine to me too.

Marcus Licinius Crassus · Jul 16, 2010

So Eurofed when will we expect in the next installment of this ever growing empire. The one problem i have is that you did not name any generals in the great war. Maybe you can name one triumphant Union general that becomes a future president. But I have to say that the Great War story was excellent. Another question is what will be the casualty figures for a war like this?

Eurofed · Jul 16, 2010

Marcus Licinius Crassus said:
So Eurofed when will we expect in the next installment of this ever growing empire.

Honestly, I dunno. I got myself distracted in other projects, and did not yet put any serious effort to the sizable challenge of puzzling out the USAO Reconstruction period in some depth. It is actually more likely that before that, you may see a rewrite of the 1774-1816 portion of the TL, to plug some flaws that have come to my attention over time, since we did cover that part a lot while developing VLR.

The one problem i have is that you did not name any generals in the great war. Maybe you can name one triumphant Union general that becomes a future president.

I'm rather creatively challenged as it comes to names.

That's the reason why major alt-historical figues started to go unnamed when I deemed major butterflies would kick in. A victorious Union general is totally likely as a Reconstruction President, however.

But I have to say that the Great War story was excellent.

Thanks, it took me some serious effort. Another reason the TL went into hiatus afterwards.

Another question is what will be the casualty figures for a war like this?

Hmm, I'm no military expert (one reason why I tend to write wars without going into too much detail) but tentatively, I would expect that we can take ACW casualty figues and multiply them by 3x to 5x. We have to account for the Caribbean, South American, Western European, and Middle Eastern theaters. However, they are spread among the USA and the European powers. I welcome suggestions on this, however.

Askelion · Jul 16, 2010

Just Wanted to Say...

That I am quite impressed by this timeline everytime I look at it. The maps make it all the better

I look forward to see what's coming up.

Van555 · Jul 21, 2010

One things for sure when you return i shall be there

tubby.twins · Aug 21, 2010

Wow!

This timeline is amazing. I'm impressed by the level of detail and I have really enjoyed reading it. The maps make it seem real!

I have a few questions for Eurofed, and these mainly relate to the names of the states and territories. I've always been bothered by West Virginia (OTL) since there was no corresponding East Virginia. ITTL we also have East Tennessee and East Quebec, for which there exist no corresponding "West" states. It seems unbalanced to me, somehow.

I humbly suggest a revision (or "retcon" if that's the correct word) to rename these unbalanced states as follows. West Virginia becomes Vandalia, the original name of a proposed colony (pre-ARW) in this region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandalia_(colony)); East Tennessee becomes Cumberland, for the eponymous mountains and plateau; and East Quebec becomes Saint-Laurent in honor of the river and gulf which shapes this region. Thoughts?

Also, have you given any consideration to postal abbreviations for state and territory names? With a greater number of states it will be harder to think of unique two-letter state codes which relate to the state names, "make sense" (inasmuch as the existing codes do) and are easy for citizens to use. Would three-letter codes solve this problem? Can I help to create them?

I've been so inspired by this thread that I have just started working on a webpage with a "clickable" version of the maps posted recently, which will show details about all the states and territories as well as other nearby regions in the Americas. Things are very rough now, but I found some really neat JavaScript code to help this along. If it's okay with the map-makers, I would like to reuse the maps (with due credit and attribution, of course) in this manner, and share the results with the community.

Thanks for the great work done so far, and let's keep this one alive. It has captured my imagination.

Eurofed · Aug 21, 2010

tubby.twins said:
This timeline is amazing. I'm impressed by the level of detail and I have really enjoyed reading it. The maps make it seem real!

The maps are the (very good) work of Helios-Ra.

I just provided the AH speculation.

I have a few questions for Eurofed, and these mainly relate to the names of the states and territories. I've always been bothered by West Virginia (OTL) since there was no corresponding East Virginia. ITTL we also have East Tennessee and East Quebec, for which there exist no corresponding "West" states. It seems unbalanced to me, somehow.

As it concerns East Quebec, I have to tell that Aranfan once made me a convincing argument about why its existence is unnecessary fragmentation, and I bought it. If and when the lazy-busy me does the revision of the TL I've been thinking of for some time, I was thinking to revise EQ out of existence and replace it with Acadia (which would become a state together with Maine).

OTOH, I'm also seriously considering to revise the sequence of entry for Caribbean states in the Union, since the solution I originally adopted is admittedly suboptimal. I was more unexperienced, and I handwaved the thorny issue of the relationship between Haiti and the slave states. In the revision, I might keep Haiti out of the Union till the First Great War, at least the western republic if not quite possibly all of the island. OTOH, I may anticipate the USA annexation of Cuba, if not Puerto Rico, to the War of 1812, instead of the First Great War. Depending on the final number of Caribbean slave states, I might keep EQ in the row to balance them, although I'd prefer to anticipate the entry of Acadia anyway. Anyway, I'm going to adopt your "St. Lawrence" name if I keep such a state. I might even leave Jamaica to Britain till the first Great War, to make the peace less onermous to Britain, although I am more dubious about this last part.

I eagerly welcome suggestions.

I humbly suggest a revision (or "retcon" if that's the correct word) to rename these unbalanced states as follows. West Virginia becomes Vandalia, the original name of a proposed colony (pre-ARW) in this region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandalia_(colony)); East Tennessee becomes Cumberland, for the eponymous mountains and plateau; and East Quebec becomes Saint-Laurent in honor of the river and gulf which shapes this region. Thoughts?

Your naming suggestions are very welcome, since I've always been very creatively-challenged as far as names go. Consider your suggestions retconned and adopted.

Also, have you given any consideration to postal abbreviations for state and territory names?

Not really, see above.

With a greater number of states it will be harder to think of unique two-letter state codes which relate to the state names, "make sense" (inasmuch as the existing codes do) and are easy for citizens to use. Would three-letter codes solve this problem? Can I help to create them?

Yes and Yes. Your help is very welcome.

I've been so inspired by this thread that I have just started working on a webpage with a "clickable" version of the maps posted recently, which will show details about all the states and territories as well as other nearby regions in the Americas. Things are very rough now, but I found some really neat JavaScript code to help this along. If it's okay with the map-makers, I would like to reuse the maps (with due credit and attribution, of course) in this manner, and share the results with the community.

I welcome your help. Map-making was Helios-Ra's field, but I don't think he shall have problems with your offer.

Helios Ra · Aug 21, 2010

Go ahead and do something with the maps. So long as I get credit for the originals I have no problem with it.

Van555 · Aug 22, 2010

Does this mean a return of the greatest America of all!

Cythia · Aug 23, 2010

tubby.twins said:
I humbly suggest a revision (or "retcon" if that's the correct word) to rename these unbalanced states as follows. West Virginia becomes Vandalia, the original name of a proposed colony (pre-ARW) in this region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandalia_(colony)); East Tennessee becomes Cumberland, for the eponymous mountains and plateau; and East Quebec becomes Saint-Laurent in honor of the river and gulf which shapes this region. Thoughts?

When a piece of territory is divided, you get mutual cardinal designations. When a piece of a territory is simply lopped off, the new territory receives a cardinal designation to differentiate it from the original.

tubby.twins · Aug 27, 2010

Cythia said:
When a piece of territory is divided, you get mutual cardinal designations. When a piece of a territory is simply lopped off, the new territory receives a cardinal designation to differentiate it from the original.

ITTL that's true for California, Hispaniola (Dominic), Peru and Guyana, but not true for the Republic of Texas (which was divided into Texas, Madison, Crockett or Arnold) or the Republic of Rio Grande (which was divided into Cohauila and Tampico). I guess it depends on how tightly-knit the various regions were, and the circumstances of their division.

Regarding Cumberland: IOTL we had an unsuccessful attempt to make a separate state of Franklin in several counties which now comprise eastern Tennessee; this was suppressed by the North Carolina government before the eventual formation of the state Tennessee. However, ITTL it's plausible that residents in those counties had more independent leanings, and with no prior failures at secession from their parent state, maybe they wanted to create a newly-named state rather than simply be labeled as a cardinal designation of Tennessee. That, along with the difference in geography and terrain, could make for a different mindset.

Regarding Vandalia: Okay, maybe that's simply a butterfly. On the other hand, maybe ITTL there were more immigrants from Poland or the eastern parts of Germany, who would have found an affinity with the name (being descended distantly from the original Vandals) and this kept the state from being named West Virginia.

I still think a separate Acadia (i.e. the mainland portion of Nova Scotia) is plausible as well, after the conclusion of the ACW. Let's assume that a sizable number of the Francophone descendants of the original Acadians (who relocated to Louisiana during the Great Upheaval) got tired of being in the middle of the battles of the Civil War, and decided to move back to the "original" Acadia which had been subsumed by Nova Scotia at the time. Could that have tipped the balance? Only Eurofed can say for sure.

Back on the subject of maps. I've got the interactive "clickable" maps for 1808, 1811 and 1816 posted at my website, here:

http://www.gerb.ws/cartography/alternate/USAO_interactive/

Comments and feedback are welcome. I'm going to keep this up and eventually get through all the other maps issued so far.