Crazymachines
Banned
either way the initial map is supposed to be a year after everything goes to crap for the union so if that happens its a few map iterations away
United states breakup: map suggestions
- Thread starter Crazymachines
- Start date
Ficboy
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Since the United States is more or less gone, Maryland and New Jersey are likely to leave and pursue their own path while Delaware stays.
Crazymachines
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you've reiterated this same opinion over and over again. its kind of boring if you don't contribute any new stuff to the conversation
Except the NY-NJ rivalry would probably keep NJ within the Continental Congress; if the rump US makes a move for NY, in whole or in part, that potential issue would be resoved. Likewise, there is a potential of Maryland also sticking with the rump-US. While it may share more with the South, at the same time Annapolis would probably still want to preserve good relations with the federal government to avoid being swallowed up by, well, Virginia.
It would probably have to share with the rump-US or not act on them and channel its population urges elsewhere.
Crazymachines
Banned
Thinking of joining New York to either new england or the rump usa. Thoughts? Might still keep it independent but I want others thoughts on this
A New York state in this period is going to have competing land claims with Pennsylvania and New England/Vermont. I imagine it moves to (or stays with) the group of states that it believes will best help it realize it's territorial ambitions against the other. It also has competing claims with Virginia to consider. Overall, it might make the most sense to New York to stick with the Congress. Also sets up conflict with New England over Vermont claims.
Crazymachines
Banned
Joining New York to the confederation congress gives me pause as it would be the only really pro federal state left, whereas new england is very pro federalist
Congress might allow a greater degree of autonomy for New York, whilst New England would be more centralist.
New York would be a counterbalance to Massachusetts in New England, and would also allow direct access to the Northwest Territory.
Ultimately, it depends on what New York feels is in its own interests.
New York would be a counterbalance to Massachusetts in New England, and would also allow direct access to the Northwest Territory.
Ultimately, it depends on what New York feels is in its own interests.
Crazymachines
Banned
Overall do you think it's more likely they go to alone? If not, which party do you think they'd be more likely to team up with?
I don't know enough about this period's history or politics to make a firm decision, sorry.
My gut says that they go it alone, at least at first, and make a final decision later on. It very much depends on what the vested interests feel is more appropriate.
Crazymachines
Banned
It'd be amazing if Hamilton took power in New York and turned it into his very own centralized playground
Hmm - if Hamilton was somehow elected Governor of New York instead of George Clinton, that would change quite a few things.
Does anyone know how strong Federalist vs. Anti-Federalist/Democratic-Republican sentiment was in New York at the time? After looking this up, I am aware John Jay was elected for two terms, but apart from that, Democratic-Republicans (or proto-DRs) held the post all the way up to 1828, when Martin van Buren was elected under a Democratic ticket.
List of governors of New York - Wikipedia
I suggest reading up on Yohogania County Virginia for SW PA
en.wikipedia.org
Yohogania County, Virginia - Wikipedia
Either can work. If NY joins the rump-US, that would definitely be beneficial for the latter as far as Downstate is concerned; if NY joins New England, it would also be equally beneficial as far as Upstate is concerned in terms of cultural similarity and old historical claims (not that anyone would be concerned by that point), not to mention NYC and Boston would definitely complement each other.
I don't think New England would be any more centralist than it already was historically, considering the vast amount of rivalries and such going on, both within Massachusetts and outside of it, plus the anomalous state of Rhode Island at the time. The problem is Massachusetts has a tendency to equate New England with itself, as if it alone was the sole representative of it - hence why NH, RI, and CT were formed because of disagreements with Massachusetts at some point or another. NY would be one more because a good part of Upstate was originally settled from New England, as well as the strength of NYC.
Crazymachines
Banned
Since I haven't decided in the exact date the divergences take place this may or may not existI suggest reading up on Yohogania County Virginia for SW PA
Yohogania County, Virginia - Wikipedia
Assuming there is strong(er) Federalist feeling in New York, and assuming that New York and the New England states resolve extant territorial claims, I could see New York at least leaning into the "join New England" camp eventually.
In regards to the points @Dan1988 made, would New England become "basically the OTL US, but a parliamentary democracy, rather than a presidential one"?
Meanwhile, the Continental Congress develops into a "basically the OTL US, but smaller, and a bit less centralised"?
As to the Carolinas and Georgia - I really don't know how likely they would be to unify, even under a loose confederation. On the other hand, Long North Carolina and Big Georgia would have more issues keeping their interior territories under control, particularly with Natives and long lines of communication and supply.
Even assuming the Obligatory Confederation of Carolina unifies, would North Carolina and Georgia agree to spin off their western lands to form new states?
In regards to the points @Dan1988 made, would New England become "basically the OTL US, but a parliamentary democracy, rather than a presidential one"?
Meanwhile, the Continental Congress develops into a "basically the OTL US, but smaller, and a bit less centralised"?
As to the Carolinas and Georgia - I really don't know how likely they would be to unify, even under a loose confederation. On the other hand, Long North Carolina and Big Georgia would have more issues keeping their interior territories under control, particularly with Natives and long lines of communication and supply.
Even assuming the Obligatory Confederation of Carolina unifies, would North Carolina and Georgia agree to spin off their western lands to form new states?
I think that once these states split off, the politics of confederation/federalism within the US will become subordinate to the baser 'national interests' of the states. Looking at the key issues not related to federalism will probably provide more insight onto how states will move and merge.
And as an adopted Rhode Islander, they are still proud, 400 years later, of their contrarian stubborness (and still stubborn to this day). A New England polity will be less centralized than maybe supposed, with other states pushing back against Massachusetts. Even Western Mass. is going to push, unless it breaks off with Vermont.
And as an adopted Rhode Islander, they are still proud, 400 years later, of their contrarian stubborness (and still stubborn to this day). A New England polity will be less centralized than maybe supposed, with other states pushing back against Massachusetts. Even Western Mass. is going to push, unless it breaks off with Vermont.
Crazymachines
Banned
I'm trying to settle on a realistic POD, any suggestions? Keeping the articles of confederation to me is unlikely because everyone knew they were broken and needed to be fixed, a much more flawed constitution on the other hand...
Or maybe Aaron Burr pees in the proverbial pool, I dunno
Or maybe Aaron Burr pees in the proverbial pool, I dunno