United Spanish America

[Sarrugi lugal]

Like the American revolutionary war

Spanish american wars of independence are an united effort

The New republic is modelled after USA
with limited central government and high regional autonomy butterflying away secessionist movement

Leader sets a precedent of limited terms like Washington butterflying away future Dictatorships

They Industrialize like USA did

What effects would this have in US, world wars and world history

 

[Fernando III]

Like the American revolutionary war

Spanish american wars of independence are an united effort

The New republic is modelled after USA
with limited central government and high regional autonomy butterflying away secessionist movement

Leader sets a precedent of limited terms like Washington butterflying away future Dictatorships

They Industrialize like USA did

What effects would this have in US, world wars and world history

I don't think the US model would work for LATAM and it depends a lot when they become independent. If you have a country that controls both the Mississippi basin and La Plata basin that is decently stable you basically have the basis for a hegemon that could last for centuries. It would also have an international presence as it would probably have a hold in Asia through the Phillipines.

 

[Slime_blob]

The New republic is modelled after USA

USA bad model, look at CSA's almost secession, Centralism needs to be in place to establish control and avoid secession. but with limited local autonomy to handle their small affairs

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

USA bad model, look at CSA's almost secession, Centralism needs to be in place to establish control and avoid secession. but with limited local autonomy to handle their small affairs

CSA only seceded because slavery. It was perfectly good from 1789-1861
Centralism won't at the length of san franscisco to magellan

 

[Slime_blob]

CSA only seceded because slavery. It was perfectly good from 1789-1861
Centralism won't at the length of san franscisco to magellan

Well look take a look at latin american nations, they mainly split up because of the local creoles, if you have a Strong Central Government its more unlikely for them to secede

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

I don't think the US model would work for LATAM and it depends a lot when they become independent. If you have a country that controls both the Mississippi basin and La Plata basin that is decently stable you basically have the basis for a hegemon that could last for centuries. It would also have an international presence as it would probably have a hold in Asia through the Phillipines.

If it succeeded What effects would this have in US, world wars and world history

 

[Sarrugi lugal]

USA bad model, look at CSA's almost secession, Centralism needs to be in place to establish control and avoid secession. but with limited local autonomy to handle their small affairs

If it succeeded What effects would this have in US, world wars and world history

 

[Slime_blob]

If it succeeded What effects would this have in US, world wars and world history

Cold war between the US and that state and arms race, I'm sure they'll sell Louisiana, Nuevo Mexico and California to the US for a sizeable amount just for some quick cash Because their independence war would probably be very destructive like what happened to otl so they'll have the money to rebuild the economy and etc

 

[Neal Caffrey]

USA bad model, look at CSA's almost secession, Centralism needs to be in place to establish control and avoid secession. but with limited local autonomy to handle their small affairs

Not really? Centralism was the reason the Gran Colombia failed and (arguably) the main reason why the independence wars actually happened in the first place, in such a vast territory you need some federalism to manage such a country.

But in the case of the scenario described I imagine it depends on how United such a nation would be, if it was very tightly United then the US would not be able to expand very much, in case it wasn't then US expansion could happen but it would be far more limited.

There actually is a fantastic TL about this subject made by Fed it's called "If You Can Keep It" and here's the link (https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/if-you-can-keep-it-a-revolutionary-timeline.493145/)

 

[Slime_blob]

Not really? Centralism was the reason the Gran Colombia failed and (arguably) the main reason why the independence wars actually happened in the first place, in such a vast territory you need some federalism to manage such a country.

But in the case of the scenario described I imagine it depends on how United such a nation would be, if it was very tightly United then the US would not be able to expand very much, in case it wasn't then US expansion could happen but it would be far more limited.

There actually is a fantastic TL about this subject made by Fed it's called "If You Can Keep It" and here's the link (https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/if-you-can-keep-it-a-revolutionary-timeline.493145/)

I thought that was Santander's Federalistic attitude contrasting to Bolivar's Centralistic attitude, obviously the USA in that time is just merely a confederation of states with a weak central government. And the lack of money and stuff

Santander wanted New Granada to seceed, I think he even encouraged revolts

 

[Neal Caffrey]

I thought that was Santander's Federalistic attitude contrasting to Bolivar's Centralistic attitude, obviously the USA in that time is just merely a confederation of states with a weak central government. And the lack of money and stuff

It's a bit harder than that, while there were conflicts between the two the main reason why the Gran Colombia fell apart was mainly the economic problems and how centralism made running the country and keeping it from basically being a free for all was nearly impossible for the centralist government.

For example the banditry experienced in Venezuela was incredibly damaging and drove many people to believe that Venezuelan independence was needed for the people in there to survive, that combined with the shit show that was every single loan given to the Colombians by anyone was probably the biggest reason why the Gran Colombia fell apart.

Also it should be noted that Santander wasn't a federalist when he was vice-president he became one around the end of his term as vice, his opinions changed as during his government he had seen how curiously enough a centralist government had allienated many Venezuelans and Ecuadorians into rebellion because this government did not help them enough nor did it give them enough liberty for them to try and solve the government.

This is not to say that the government did not need to be strong but rather that the local governments did need more liberty to be actually able to solve some of their issues and not get the central government bogged down in so many small things.

 

[Slime_blob]

It's a bit harder than that, while there were conflicts between the two the main reason why the Gran Colombia fell apart was mainly the economic problems and how centralism made running the country and keeping it from basically being a free for all was nearly impossible for the centralist government.

For example the banditry experienced in Venezuela was incredibly damaging and drove many people to believe that Venezuelan independence was needed for the people in there to survive, that combined with the shit show that was every single loan given to the Colombians by anyone was probably the biggest reason why the Gran Colombia fell apart.

Also it should be noted that Santander wasn't a federalist when he was vice-president he became one around the end of his term as vice, his opinions changed as during his government he had seen how curiously enough a centralist government had allienated many Venezuelans and Ecuadorians into rebellion because this government did not help them enough nor did it give them enough liberty for them to try and solve the government.

This is not to say that the government did not need to be strong but rather that the local governments did need more liberty to be actually able to solve some of their issues and not get the central government bogged down in so many small things.

That is why I'm proposing a strong centralist government that gives local government autonomy on how to handle their own stuff as long as theyre aligned with the Central government's policies,

 

[GameBawesome]

They tried to. Or more specifically, Simon Bolivar dreamed about a United Spanish America. He wanted to unite all of Spanish America in centralized nation called Colombia, as he already did with Venezuela, Colombia, and Quito…

…And that lies the problem. Bolivar wanted the nation to be a centralized state. However a majority of people wanted either to form their own independent nation, and the other if they wanted a United Spanish America, wanted a loose federation akin to the previous Articles of Confederation, and not the US Constitution. They wanted this because Spanish America was more diverse than the Thirteen Colonies. While the Thirteen Colonies was mostly Anglo-Saxon Protestants, with Irish, Scottish and German mixed in. Spanish America had a whole caste system of mixed-race people. Like Mestizos, Criollos, Indians, Blacks. The other thing is that most of these former colonies had different economic and political factor that kept them apart.

The second factor was geography. Besides the obvious terrain differences, fences, that made communication impossible, jungles and The Latin American Wars for Independence was not a unified front. It was mostly of different revolutionaries that worked together to kick Spain out. There was the Argentines, Mexicans, Peruvians, Bolivar’s Gran Colombia. All of them had different histories and geography that makes a large United Spanish Continent impossible. Then there’s the territorial disputes, which lead to various wars with one another.

The best you could do is a military or economic alliance for Spanish Latin Americans, like an EU or NATO of Latin America. Keyword, best.

 

[Fernando III]

Cold war between the US and that state and arms race, I'm sure they'll sell Louisiana, Nuevo Mexico and California to the US for a sizeable amount just for some quick cash Because their independence war would probably be very destructive like what happened to otl so they'll have the money to rebuild the economy and etc

It is a lot of butterflies.

1. Lower birthrates in the US as the population would urbanize early
2. More immigration to LATAM than OTL
3. More Asians in the Pacific
4. The new country might be more attached to Germany (heritage) than the UK.

 

[Fernando III]

They tried to. Or more specifically, Simon Bolivar dreamed about a United Spanish America. He wanted to unite all of Spanish America in centralized nation called Colombia, as he already did with Venezuela, Colombia, and Quito…

…And that lies the problem. Bolivar wanted the nation to be a centralized state. However a majority of people wanted either to form their own independent nation, and the other if they wanted a United Spanish America, wanted a loose federation akin to the previous Articles of Confederation, and not the US Constitution. They wanted this because Spanish America was more diverse than the Thirteen Colonies. While the Thirteen Colonies was mostly Anglo-Saxon Protestants, with Irish, Scottish and German mixed in. Spanish America had a whole caste system of mixed-race people. Like Mestizos, Criollos, Indians, Blacks. The other thing is that most of these former colonies had different economic and political factor that kept them apart.

The second factor was geography. Besides the obvious terrain differences, fences, that made communication impossible, jungles and The Latin American Wars for Independence was not a unified front. It was mostly of different revolutionaries that worked together to kick Spain out. There was the Argentines, Mexicans, Peruvians, Bolivar’s Gran Colombia. All of them had different histories and geography that makes a large United Spanish Continent impossible. Then there’s the territorial disputes, which lead to various wars with one another.

The best you could do is a military or economic alliance for Spanish Latin Americans, like an EU or NATO of Latin America. Keyword, best.

The Brazilian model is probably the best model for more unity in LATAM. But even when Spain tried to implement it they decided to split the empire in at least 3 or 4 kingdoms.

 

[kasumigenx]

If you have a country that controls both the Mississippi basin and La Plata basin

That is possible if Spain was not overextended which means no hostile territories which means no Africa or Ph.