United Nations Mission In South Africa

MacCaulay

Banned
At least this is an SA AH thread which isn't pseudo-Draka :p

Too true. Thank god. There seems to be a fair amount of people who look at South Africa and just say "Hey! I don't know anything about that country, but I do know a fair amount about those books!"

And in response to the whole Indian "far from home" thought...you seem to know more about it. I always got the impression that they were (and don't any Hispanics get offended) the Mexicans of South Africa.
 
Not that I don't enjoy it, its just so complicated.

And I'd have to describe myself as an English speaking South African, although my name is as Afrikaans as you can get, my mom is English, and I went to English schools etc. Not that I'm offended, its not like you called me an Australian :eek:

I was gonna say, Marius is an Afrikaner name. And not every white South African has gone to Australia (yet). I don't know if South Africa is that complicated. I mean, look at the United States or Europe. Or China. :eek:
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Okay, so not only did I start off too early, I've also made a mess of the demographics when Hindus are concerned, made Muslim support too high and gave the entire thing an ASB spin that can't be used? I thought any time someone kills a president it would result would be increased security measures, so I thought it might have brought about a larger conflict sooner. Anything else I need to go research?

Also, Marius, I appreciate the criticism and the attempt at help, but stop insulting people in the thread.
 
possibilites

No I was not on crack, just a uitlander who loves your country marius.
Let me take up your points one at a time.
Giving Non whites 120 seats in parliament, 80 for coloured in the House of representives, 40 for asians in the house of delagates, is not totall intergration, but its not tokenism either, Div Graaf head of the United Party said Botha was the first Nationalist who was willing to give a political say to non whites, however hedged it may be, it proved baaskap was over. Verwoerd was commiitted to disabled access, at a meeting with 13 industralists in jan 1966, he pledged 10 millon rand, and declared recalcatrait businessmen, would face extreme penelties.
Source, D Bernards my 13 years with H.F. Verwoerd.
I misspelled prime minister beause my hands slip.
Kaizer Mantanzima, in Independence my way, talks about how Bantustan leaders have impact on urban bantu policy for education.
He recommanded intergrated secondary schools in 1985, and the State President said, "Use of schools by multiple population groups, is no longer forbidden." It didn't happen in the ofs, maybe thats why your school was seperate.
 
No I was not on crack, just a uitlander who loves your country marius.
Let me take up your points one at a time.
Giving Non whites 120 seats in parliament, 80 for coloured in the House of representives, 40 for asians in the house of delagates, is not totall intergration, but its not tokenism either, Div Graaf head of the United Party said Botha was the first Nationalist who was willing to give a political say to non whites, however hedged it may be, it proved baaskap was over. Verwoerd was commiitted to disabled access, at a meeting with 13 industralists in jan 1966, he pledged 10 millon rand, and declared recalcatrait businessmen, would face extreme penelties.
Source, D Bernards my 13 years with H.F. Verwoerd.
I misspelled prime minister beause my hands slip.
Kaizer Mantanzima, in Independence my way, talks about how Bantustan leaders have impact on urban bantu policy for education.
He recommanded intergrated secondary schools in 1985, and the State President said, "Use of schools by multiple population groups, is no longer forbidden." It didn't happen in the ofs, maybe thats why your school was seperate.

Fair enough Sean, but please use proper punctuation, capitals where necessary, and correct grammar. It will make your posts much easier to read, and make me take you much more seriously.

I went to school in what used to be the Transvaal, in what was a relatively liberal (by South African standards) town, and my school only became integrated in 1992. You may perhaps be referring to private, or independent schools, which were integrated in the 1980s. I remember a private school in my town, St Dunstan's College, having black and Indian kids in it in the 1980s, but as I say, it was a private school.

Furthermore, integration wasn't forced until after the new Government took over in 1994. Parents at schools could vote for various ways of integrating their childrens' schools prior to 1994, and I was in what was called a "Model C" school (and which is still used as short-hand for former white schools) where the parents decided to open their schools to children of other races.

And re: Botha, the tricameral Parliament was just window-dressing, but you're right, he was one of the first Nats to start the process of dismantling apartheid. It would be fair to say that without Botha's reforms, De Klerk couldn't have taken the massive steps towards democracy which he did on 2 Fenruary 1990.
 
Okay, so not only did I start off too early, I've also made a mess of the demographics when Hindus are concerned, made Muslim support too high and gave the entire thing an ASB spin that can't be used? I thought any time someone kills a president it would result would be increased security measures, so I thought it might have brought about a larger conflict sooner. Anything else I need to go research?

Also, Marius, I appreciate the criticism and the attempt at help, but stop insulting people in the thread.

What you may also look at is the possibility of a coup prior to 1994. This was a very real possibility and the former head of the defence force, General Constand Viljoen, who later became an MP as leader of the Freedom Front, said he had seriously considered the possibility. I don't know enough about it to give you more information, but contacting my good friend, Dr Wik I perdia, will probably be a good starting point.
 
My deepest thanks

Marius, thank you, or in your language, Dankie, Meneer.
I have travelled all over the world, and never felt more welcome than in South Africa. As a wheelchair user, it felt so good, to be welcomed and looked out for as opposed to the usual lack of access and arrogent attitute. I am a university history adjuct, in New Jersey, working on a doctoral dissertation, which looks at the use of propaganda in non traditonal warfare, including Zimbabwe, and South Africa.
Everyone from a Shaggan sangoma, to Prince Buthelizi's top aide, helped me. You are lucky to live in such a land.
There was a link, between Homeland leaders, and conservative Ndbele, and Shona leaders in what was then Rhodesia. I am trying to raise funds to talk to Verwoerd's son in law, who is heading up this Orania Afrikaner movement in the north. I know the Voortrekker youth movement, helped a lot, with moulding public opinion.
As for our time the idea of a UN force was discussed in 1970.
Ellis Portal's killing Ground, about civil war in Canada opens with a commando who has just passifed Joburg
 

MacCaulay

Banned
So is there going to be more of this timeline? I'm really interested in a South Africa thread that's realistic, and this deep dark part of me wants to see a Cheetah mix it up with something. Not the cat. The plane.
And maybe an Oliphant. South Africans did great things with the Centurion.

Let's see more! Otherwise people are just going to post more Draka-crap.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
Okay, I'll restart it with the original idea of a power struggle allowing an increase in security like I planned, however it will be later, about 1994. With a military junta in place, if the security situation worsens the world might look on the South Africa region as getting worse. If it has nuclear weapons, they might have to step in before it really tears itself up (NK has them, but no real rebellions, as does China :p Another time line maybe). Sanctions from the UN around 1997, small war where nuclear weapons are used on another nation, and by 2001 there's a UN force going in. By 2008 there's still a problem with nations on the Northern border trying to get territory they lost?
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Okay, I'll restart it with the original idea of a power struggle allowing an increase in security like I planned, however it will be later, about 1994. With a military junta in place, if the security situation worsens the world might look on the South Africa region as getting worse. If it has nuclear weapons, they might have to step in before it really tears itself up (NK has them, but no real rebellions, as does China :p Another time line maybe). Sanctions from the UN around 1997, small war where nuclear weapons are used on another nation, and by 2001 there's a UN force going in. By 2008 there's still a problem with nations on the Northern border trying to get territory they lost?

So this will be something along the lines of a Balkanization of South Africa?

I'm interested, though I'm kind of wondering just how bad things would have to get for the South Africans to use to use their nukes. I remember reading something about them doing 'lob delivery' training with Mirages, using gravity bombs.
But now that I think about it, if there is any country in the modern world I can see using a nuclear weapon, it would be South Africa during Apartheid. Unless I miss my guess, just what bridges would they be burning?

I would like to know, as an aside, what any of you South Africans thought of Vortex, by Larry Bond. Crap? Good? Bad? Alright in an escapist way?
 
a possibilty

Karl vorster was a fasinating charecter.
cape seprteism wow.
I liked the ending democracy for most two little enclaves of sepretism neet
 
Here's what I figure is the best way of going about a UNMISA. Stay with OTL until about 1991, and have the violence between tribes get uglier than in OTL. (It was already nasty at that point, but anyways.) Mandela and the ANC walked out of CODESA II because they accused de Klerk and the NP of stoking the violence. (Which to a certain extent was proven to be true later on.) After Hani was murdered, all sides knew full well they had to get to the bargaining table before all hell broke loose.

If you want a UNMISA, have the 1991 violence turn into sporadic battles both between the various tribes and then eventually, after Hani is murdered, into full-blown attacks on Whites, Coloreds and Indians. (All of whom most of the ANC's hardliners despised.) Mandela's faction of the ANC is unable to control the insanity, and the SADF and SAP have no hope in hell of controlling the violence. The minorities retreat to the Cape in 1993-94 in a mass exodus, leaving Transvaal, part of the Free State and Natal to the violence. This allows the SADF, and now ANC militias loyal to the government, to hold the areas that are outside of the main tribal regions. The Cape today has 2/3 of its population being white or colored, so adding the ~3-4 million people who would have fled the Highveld, which includes Pretoria and Johannesburg, would give the minorities a massive majority in the Cape. At this point however, the racism would be untenable, which means that moderate blacks would number millions in the Cape.

The tribal forces and the SADF battle to a stalemate, which results in peace negotiations. The UN intervenes to keep the two sides apart. Hence UNMISA.
 

MacCaulay

Banned
Here's what I figure is the best way of going about a UNMISA. Stay with OTL until about 1991, and have the violence between tribes get uglier than in OTL. (It was already nasty at that point, but anyways.) Mandela and the ANC walked out of CODESA II because they accused de Klerk and the NP of stoking the violence. (Which to a certain extent was proven to be true later on.) After Hani was murdered, all sides knew full well they had to get to the bargaining table before all hell broke loose.

If you want a UNMISA, have the 1991 violence turn into sporadic battles both between the various tribes and then eventually, after Hani is murdered, into full-blown attacks on Whites, Coloreds and Indians. (All of whom most of the ANC's hardliners despised.) Mandela's faction of the ANC is unable to control the insanity, and the SADF and SAP have no hope in hell of controlling the violence. The minorities retreat to the Cape in 1993-94 in a mass exodus, leaving Transvaal, part of the Free State and Natal to the violence. This allows the SADF, and now ANC militias loyal to the government, to hold the areas that are outside of the main tribal regions. The Cape today has 2/3 of its population being white or colored, so adding the ~3-4 million people who would have fled the Highveld, which includes Pretoria and Johannesburg, would give the minorities a massive majority in the Cape. At this point however, the racism would be untenable, which means that moderate blacks would number millions in the Cape.

The tribal forces and the SADF battle to a stalemate, which results in peace negotiations. The UN intervenes to keep the two sides apart. Hence UNMISA.

Heck, you might have the Americans and British going in to airstrike the South African nuclear stockpile at Pelendaba if they think that the country is going to go down the toilet.

I'm just spitballing here, though. I've got about a million ideas for short stories, but I don't want to start putting words into this guy's mouth. And I really like the idea of a unified UN operation. There's all sorts of story ideas that come out of the logistics involved with interational operations.
 
Heck, you might have the Americans and British going in to airstrike the South African nuclear stockpile at Pelendaba if they think that the country is going to go down the toilet.

The nuclear arsenal was already long gone by 1992 - it was said to have been dismantled by early 1990.
 
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