United Kingdom of England & Burgundy

MerryPrankster said:
So the King of England is still King of Burgundy, but he is (theoretically) vassal to the French King?

Until 1506, yes; at least for those lands which were fiefs of the French crown, i.e. Burgundy, the Somme towns, Artois & Flanders. After the 1507 Peace of Rouen, the King of England and whatever I end up changing the name of Burgundy to has no claim of any kind or military presence at all in Burgundy or anywhere else in France. Unless one counts Calais, which I don't 'cuz it was English for so long and had a significant English population. Flanders and Artois cease to be possessions, even theoretically, of the French crown after 1507.
 
plantagenet said:
Until 1506, yes; at least for those lands which were fiefs of the French crown, i.e. Burgundy, the Somme towns, Artois & Flanders. After the 1507 Peace of Rouen, the King of England and whatever I end up changing the name of Burgundy to has no claim of any kind or military presence at all in Burgundy or anywhere else in France. Unless one counts Calais, which I don't 'cuz it was English for so long and had a significant English population. Flanders and Artois cease to be possessions, even theoretically, of the French crown after 1507.

Was one king legally vassal to another ? All kings hold their titles from the Papacy in theory and the Pope is the arbitor. I can see how the King of England as DUKE of Burgundy could be vassal in that respect to the King of France, but I do not think that if the Pope has granted Burgundy the title of kingdom he can be...

That is LEGALLY, lol. I am trying to think how it worked elsewhere - Navarre was vassal on and off of Aragon, but was it vassal when it had a DIFFERENT king from Aragon ? I didn't quite think so

This is arcane, but I think you have to be careful of this

Grey Wolf
 
Flag Attempt I at the United Kingdom of England (Wales) and Burgundy...I figure, Wales would become a consituent part as we have no Henrys VII & VIII
 

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I think Richard of York and Mary of Burgundy would be an interesting pair..Margaret of York being exchanged for Mary of Burgundy..I think that would increase the power of the Yorkists but the relationship of the Yorkists to the French might change.
 
Instead of king of Burgundy, Lotharingia, Brabant or Frisia/Friesland could all be alternatives. However there was a kingdom of Burgundy, which was part of the HRE, it was AKA the kingdom of Arles or Arelate, many parts of it ended up in French hands, but the empire had never given up the title. Another thing with the Royal promotion is, what does the emperor gain by granting this crown. Furthermore the other prominent imperial nobles will have an opinion about this too.
One issue regarding the OTL negotiations of Charles the Bold was that he also demanded some other territories not controlled by him (directly) to be attached to his kingdom as vassals.

A kingdom created out of the Burgundian imperial possessions, which still accepts the empire as suzerain is the best bet. Maybe the prince bishoprics of Liege, Cambrai and Utrecht (which were already in the Burgundian sphere) are attached to it and even nominally the territory of the free Frisians; but Cleves, Savoy or Lorraine, which OTL Charles the Bold apparently wished to be given as vassals will be overplaying the 'Burgundian' hand. However there still remains the question, what does the empire and the emperor gain by this.

Regarding the peace of Rouen, maybe Burgundy could keep the counties of St. Pol, Boulogne and in time Calais could be transferred to them. France keeps Ponthieu, Eu, Vermandois, and Picardy.

@ Grey Wolf: Not all kings, since the (Holy Roman) emperor also had the right to grant a royal crown. This Burgundy or Lotharingia could and probably would end up like the OTL kingdom of Bohemia, maybe without an electoral vote (they could eventually end up with one), which was an autonomous part of the empire, which king was an imperial prince and subject of the empire.
 
Apologies for making use of my dark powers to bring this thread back to life, but I randomly stumbled across this thread earlier today and was sad to see that it seemed to have died out without explanation. I love the concept proposed here, and would definitely like to see more. Did you abandon this idea, or did you just put it in hibernation for a while?
 
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