United Germany in the 17th century.

How would the world be affected if, some how, Germany was reunited in the 1600s? How could this be achieved? What affects will this have on the balance of power in Europe? Who would lead the unification?

Germany:
In Europe, if my limited historical knowledge of the era is to be correct, a united Germany might not be able to combat France one-on-one just yet, but a few years of building up might see it become its rival. Germany would have taken advantage of the scattered politics in Italy, the dying Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, the weaker states in Scandinavia and try to unite with the Dutch Republic. I think a major war with France would be inevitable; it all depends on the time it occurs. If it is too early, France would win hands down. However, if it is delayed long enough, the Germans might just pull through it.
In terms of structure, it would have to be a federation, as nationalist feelings would cause any hope of a centralised government to fall to pieces.

German Colonial Empire:
I would think that, with America largely occupied, the new Germany would tern to Africa and India, before Britain and France would. A German empire in India might seem unlikely, but Britain was more concerned with its colonies in North America until the birth of the United States in 1776. France also had the majority of its empire in America at the time. The Germans might even be able to create settlements in Indonesia.
For German Africa we might see German settlements in the Congo, Nigeria and around Tanzania. Again, the big colonial powers of the future would be tangled in America, although the Portuguese would still maintain their presence there.
 

Thande

Donor
German Colonial Empire:
I would think that, with America largely occupied, the new Germany would tern to Africa and India, before Britain and France would. A German empire in India might seem unlikely, but Britain was more concerned with its colonies in North America until the birth of the United States in 1776. France also had the majority of its empire in America at the time. The Germans might even be able to create settlements in Indonesia.
For German Africa we might see German settlements in the Congo, Nigeria and around Tanzania. Again, the big colonial powers of the future would be tangled in America, although the Portuguese would still maintain their presence there.
Too early for Africa.

OTL 17th-century Germany(ies) did have settlements in Venezuela.
 
No, sir!

It might have been small, insignificant and rather short-lived, but there was the Brandenburger Gold Coast!

Though one might wonder why a united Germany would have more interest in it and other colonies than Prussia did ...
 

Thande

Donor
No, sir!

It might have been small, insignificant and rather short-lived, but there was the Brandenburger Gold Coast!

Though one might wonder why a united Germany would have more interest in it and other colonies than Prussia did ...

Ah, good point. Trading colonies yes, but I got the impression the first poster was thinking of Prussia's 19th century colonies being colonised by this hypothetical united Germany in the 17th century, but that doesn't make any sense.

However, by all means as you say, this Germany could have trading posts along the West African coast.
 
Something like this?
(based on T. Anderson's 1700 map)

early unified germany.GIF
 
I think it's worth asking how this comes about.

I love the idea of a united Germany int he 17th century, but... again, how?
 
A different 30 years war leading to more centrilization, and not decentrilization, perhaps?

I you solve the religious problems, this woulb be possible.
Before the entry of the Swedes into the War the Imperials were very successful. Wallenstein occupied the northgerman states. At this point a strong imperial control over most of the HRE was a reality. But of course, even if the Swedes had not entered the war it is rather doubtful that the HRE princes would tolerate a strong Emperor.

Colonies would simply have been a matter of prestige. Why should a united Germany let the French and Spanish and English grab the whole world?
 
I think a totally united germany is a bit far fetched, however maybe two a large north german confederation or empire created after a 30 years war that the protestants to a great deal better in. Probably under swedish control for a while until a strong german leader takes over. Eventually this expands into poland and south into the indepedent and catholic states of the south
 
Something like this?
Doesn’t the orange represent the Dutch Republic? With the Dutch apart of the new Germany, wouldn't its colonial holdings be absorbed as well?

I think a totally united germany is a bit far fetched, however maybe two a large north german confederation or empire created after a 30 years war that the protestants to a great deal better in. Probably under swedish control for a while until a strong german leader takes over. Eventually this expands into poland and south into the indepedent and catholic states of the south
I recently realised the major religious differences between north and south Germany at the time, so your idea makes some sense. Because the Dutch and Prussians would be apart of this new German Federation, their colonial holdings would pass onto Germany. If Germany can survive France and Austria, it would inevitably swallow the south German states, along with Silesia for its industry.
 
A 17th century united Germany could certainly come about if the Imperial forces manage to win the Thirty Years War; certainly the French were quite worried about the possibility of a strong Hapsburg-run HRE on their borders. Of course, if the Hapsburgs can consolidate their hold on the Empire then the resultant Deutschland will be quite Groß, and very much a dominant power on the continent.

The problem with producing a Kleindeutschland as eventually came about in OTL is that 17th century Germany lacks any states nearly as strong as Prussia would become, so any such unification would be more likely along the lines of the Swedish plans for Germany during the 30 Years War; a loose confederation dominated by a foreign power.
 
Bright day
I don't know there was a big huge struggle for Imperial control in HRE for centuries, pretty much culminating in the Thirty Years War. The bordering countries will get involved and there is no nationalism to make this involvement a catalysis of popular movement...
 
A different 30 years war leading to more centrilization, and not decentrilization, perhaps?
Best bet would be the Imperials winning a Three Years War rather than a Thirty Years War, but the Emperor being whacked near the end of it. His successor is bit more of a politique, and realises Imperial unity is greater than religious squabbles.
Perhaps Wallenstein taking power in a coup d'etat? Maybe not as Emperor, but as Lord Chamberlain and Treasury Minister or something like that, which would put him in a PM-like position, allowing him to mold the Imperial administration to a more centralising path. Maybe not in the 1600s, but by 1701, the Empire would be a lot more powerful.

wouldn't a united 17th century germany butterfly away the world wars, or at least, if world wars broke out, theyd be incredibly different.
Even if they were incredibly different, they'd still be world wars, which I think were more or less inevitable.
 
I dont think the world wars were inevitable. An earlier united Germany has the potential (note; not destiny) to dominate the continent and preclude any "world" wars. This does not mean that large wars would not be fought, say between Russia and Germany, or even Germany and Britain, or any power that may arise. They just do not have to be world wars, disastrously costly yes, but not world wars. Id like to think nothing is inevitable, especially the horrors of the world wars.
 
I dont think the world wars were inevitable. An earlier united Germany has the potential (note; not destiny) to dominate the continent and preclude any "world" wars. This does not mean that large wars would not be fought, say between Russia and Germany, or even Germany and Britain, or any power that may arise. They just do not have to be world wars, disastrously costly yes, but not world wars. Id like to think nothing is inevitable, especially the horrors of the world wars.

I'm not sure I follow your logic, or what exactly you believe constitues a "world war." There would certainly be great power wars between alliances of several large industrial powers, which is what the World Wars of OTL were. World War I was an almost exclusively European affair with only some minor skirmishes taking place in the various colonies and the US's very late entry into the conflict.

IMO, in any TL that doesn't involve removing humanity great power wars between large alliances will continue until nuclear weapons have been developed and used at least once in wartime; it takes weapons capable of wiping out entire cities in one go to make great power wars stop being worthwhile. If Germany dominates the European Continent, you will certainly see France, Russia, England/Britain, the Ottomans, and just about everyone else fighting numerous wars to weaken/contain the Germans just as happened with France at this time period in OTL. With those kinds of great power wars going on both sides are going to be looking for allies, and between technological development and the fact that European states will still be eager to build up colonial empires (especially if a dominant Germany makes gains in Europe impossible) it is only a matter of time before countries on the other side of the world get dragged into alliances in hopes of shifting the balance of power.
 
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