United Germania

I’m trying to come up with a scenario that involves a more “modernized” United Germania that could be considered civilized by the Roman Empire. In OTL Germania was a vast land full of numerous barbarian tribes. I’m thinking that Arminius could possibly use his past knowledge to forge a civilized German state! What do you think? Need help!!
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
This could somewhat be related to my timeline about the United empire of the Germanic people along with Finno-Ugrics and others. Perhaps some ideas can be imported from that timeline to achieve this. Would be interesting. Look into the thread I started yesterday about that.
 
I’m trying to come up with a scenario that involves a more “modernized” United Germania that could be considered civilized by the Roman Empire. In OTL Germania was a vast land full of numerous barbarian tribes. I’m thinking that Arminius could possibly use his past knowledge to forge a civilized German state! What do you think? Need help!!

If he beats Germanicus (who won't be called that since he lost), probably by luck involving Germanicus's death in battle, then Rome won't mess with him for some time. But Arminius had so many enemies that even if he himself has the prestige to be a "king", then his successor won't and Rome can once again help out a less threatening tribal rulers to keep the peace on the northern border. He's liable to be murdered by other German chiefs too.

As a tribal society, the Germans don't have the internal development needed to be civilised (or even make what you could call a state) to since their land was a bunch of forests with the occasional village and trading posts. To get state formation speeded up there Arminius can only be a base on which to build, not some guy who can do it in 20-30 years. And they'll need plenty of help and trade with Rome to do so.
 
I doubt that it can be anything more than loose tribal confederacy which might fall apart quickly. Germans were only just several tribes which occassionally warred against each others. There wa<sn't any unificating factory and not German nationalism so it wouldn't be easy. Even if someone strong tribal leader manage unite tribes or most of tribes it will fall apart soon after this strongman's death or failure in battle. And Romans hardly would are pleased such confederacy. It would be possibility dangerous rival. It is easier keep them in control when they are pnch of fighting tribes.u
 
Well the best POD would be Arminius (his real name was likely Sigeric) uniting the Germans, but it will be tricky. His main rivals, the Marcomanni, need to be taken out early on. If Arminius takes a more active role in his conquests and defeats the Romans on a larger scale, it might be a possibility.
 
Well the best POD would be Arminius (his real name was likely Sigeric) uniting the Germans, but it will be tricky. His main rivals, the Marcomanni, need to be taken out early on. If Arminius takes a more active role in his conquests and defeats the Romans on a larger scale, it might be a possibility.

Why Sigeric in particular? Any "sigi-" name seems plausible given his family had a lot of people with "sigi-" in their names, hence why some have suggested that his name was Sigfrid and was the inspiration of the Sigurd/Siegfried legend.

But no, even if Arminius wins the support of most/all the German tribes through popular support or warfare, then there's to big question on what happens when he's gone? Or when he's too old to fight what happens when Rome offers to help a young upstart tribal chief? Or when some chiefs are pissed he killed their relatives and goes about acting like a king and decide to backstab him? Having the biggest stick (and most clever way of using it since Rome's stick is still bigger) will only get him and especially his successors so far.
 
Why Sigeric in particular? Any "sigi-" name seems plausible given his family had a lot of people with "sigi-" in their names, hence why some have suggested that his name was Sigfrid and was the inspiration of the Sigurd/Siegfried legend.

Well he might change his name to have the -ric suffix to signify his role as King.

But no, even if Arminius wins the support of most/all the German tribes through popular support or warfare, then there's to big question on what happens when he's gone? Or when he's too old to fight what happens when Rome offers to help a young upstart tribal chief? Or when some chiefs are pissed he killed their relatives and goes about acting like a king and decide to backstab him? Having the biggest stick (and most clever way of using it since Rome's stick is still bigger) will only get him and especially his successors so far.

I agree his kingdom will be incredibly difficult to manage for his descendants. His successor getting backed by Rome would be a start.
 
Keep in mind that part of what kept Germania independent was it's lack of civilization. In Gaul, Julius Caesar could march on well built roads to cities and fortresses that were well defined objectives against organised armies and infrastructure.

Varus had to march on narrow forest paths perfect for ambushing from village to village where none were not much more important than the others. The same dynamic was in play in Scotland, the Romans could slaughter thousands but withdraw because there were not enough real objectives or anything developed enough for them to care to hold.

While this changed over time, Arminius probably knew what he was doing by not build roads and building up "Civilization".
 
Keep in mind that part of what kept Germania independent was it's lack of civilization. In Gaul, Julius Caesar could march on well built roads to cities and fortresses that were well defined objectives against organised armies and infrastructure.

Varus had to march on narrow forest paths perfect for ambushing from village to village where none were not much more important than the others. The same dynamic was in play in Scotland, the Romans could slaughter thousands but withdraw because there were not enough real objectives or anything developed enough for them to care to hold.

Caesar did invade Germania, his battles constituted of wiping tribes from existence and completely depopulating areas by killing everyone. It was on a whole other level to his warfare in Gaul.

Roman genocide: Battlefield where Julius Caesar slaughtered 150,000 tribespeople discovered in Netherlands

Caesar trying to pacify all of Germania would probably end with him wiping out 95%+ of the population to set up interconnected Roman towns and cities in the area over the next century as part of Roman colonization.
 
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Caesar did invade Germania, his battles constituted of wiping tribes from existence and completely depopulating areas by killing everyone. It was on a whole other level to his warfare in Gaul.

Roman genocide: Battlefield where Julius Caesar slaughtered 150,000 tribespeople discovered in Netherlands

Caesar trying to pacify all of Germania would probably end with him wiping out 95%+ of the population to set up interconnected Roman towns and cities in the area over the next century as part of Roman colonization.

He operated only in border regions and didn't went much beyond Rhein River. It is easy make some raids but totally different thing is conquer that.
 
Caesar did invade Germania, his battles constituted of wiping tribes from existence and completely depopulating areas by killing everyone. It was on a whole other level to his warfare in Gaul.

Roman genocide: Battlefield where Julius Caesar slaughtered 150,000 tribespeople discovered in Netherlands

Caesar trying to pacify all of Germania would probably end with him wiping out 95%+ of the population to set up interconnected Roman towns and cities in the area over the next century as part of Roman colonization.

1) The "Gaulish" infrastructure that Caesar used was in the Netherlands which was definitely "Gaul" in 55 BCE even if that article calls the tribes Germanic and the populations in that area were mixed. I kinda suspect you know that.

2) Yes, Caesar would be able to do that. On the other hand East of the Rhine wasn't very developed and not worth his time. Basically, why bother cutting your way and developing cities in the middle nowhere while you can loot and move into rich, well developed cities of Gaul.

In modern terms imagine you could choosing between looting NYC and kerping the infrastructure or Roswell, New Mexico and then building NYC on the flattened corpse of Roswell. The fact that you chose to loot NYC (Gaul) doesn't change the fact that Roswell (Germania) is still there.
 
1) The "Gaulish" infrastructure that Caesar used was in the Netherlands which was definitely "Gaul" in 55 BCE even if that article calls the tribes Germanic and the populations in that area were mixed. I kinda suspect you know that.

2) Yes, Caesar would be able to do that. On the other hand East of the Rhine wasn't very developed and not worth his time. Basically, why bother cutting your way and developing cities in the middle nowhere while you can loot and move into rich, well developed cities of Gaul.

In modern terms imagine you could choosing between looting NYC and kerping the infrastructure or Roswell, New Mexico and then building NYC on the flattened corpse of Roswell. The fact that you chose to loot NYC (Gaul) doesn't change the fact that Roswell (Germania) is still there.

Sure, there were wealthier and more developed areas that would be higher on the priority list for him post Gaul such as Dacia not to mention conquests in the East. A surviving Roman Republic would have in time conquered Germany I suspect, but the Empire progressively produced a less and less militarily competent Roman Army.
 
I kinda suspect a Roman Republic would have continued to fight itself until it became an empire or fragmented into 4-5 "Roman" states similar to Sextus Pompey's Sicily with armies being increasingly local but built on a "Roman" model with an officer corps that sees itself as Roman, at least at first.

And they'd be too busy fighting each other to bother with Germania.
 
I’m trying to come up with a scenario that involves a more “modernized” United Germania that could be considered civilized by the Roman Empire. In OTL Germania was a vast land full of numerous barbarian tribes. I’m thinking that Arminius could possibly use his past knowledge to forge a civilized German state! What do you think? Need help!!
Does it need to be strictly Germanic or Celtic too?

For the first case you would need Germans to takeover the Rhine and Danube region within Central Europe(this would be long term, maybe have a similar Dacian expansion, harsher Cimbrian migrations on the Danube region and harsh conflict in Southern Gaul), otherwise their lands would be too little for a larger state to survive long term, then you would need the Roman territories to stop at the big Alps and the Dinaric Alps, possibly even without Iberia, maybe have the Macedonian-Greek and Cartaginians survive in Greece, North Africa and Iberia, from there you would see Germanic states build up by osmosis through contact.
 
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