Unit 731

Blair152

Banned
Unit 731 was the Imperial Japanese Army's biological warfare unit. Allied
POWs were subjected to gruesome experiments. Its commander, General
Shiro Ikii, skated on war crimes charges because the United States wanted to use his knowledge for its fledgling biological warfare program. One of the
weirdest, and successful, bombs produced by Unit 731 was a plague bomb.
Survivors are suing the Japanese over this. More people died in Unit 731 than died in the Nazi death camps. There was a book written about it back in
the '90s. Another possibility, and real fear among policy makers in 1945, was
a possible kamikaze attack on San Francisco with plague bomb. Unlike the
Nazi death camps, very little is known about Unit 731.
 
Ok, first you need to cite some of your sources about the 'plague bomb' and the death toll of Unit 731--I believe that more people died in the Nazi Camps. Secondly, what are you asking? What is the 'what if'?
 
Unlike the
Nazi death camps, very little is known about Unit 731.

Um, no.
there is alot of information out there.

More people died in Unit 731 than died in the Nazi death camps

and the Numbers of how many died because of Unit 731 vary from 200,000 to 580,000 to 600,000.

Auschwitz killed about one million.

and what is the point of this thread? you're not asking any questions about it.
 

Blair152

Banned
Ok, first you need to cite some of your sources about the 'plague bomb' and the death toll of Unit 731--I believe that more people died in the Nazi Camps. Secondly, what are you asking? What is the 'what if'?
I don't have anything in front of me. Besides, if I told you, there'd be a big
fight here. There's a book about Unit 731-----several in fact. What if there
was a kamikaze attack on San Francisco with a plague bomb? This isn't something I just pulled out of thin air. Unit 731 existed. It even tested a plague bomb on the city of Harbin, China.
 
I don't have anything in front of me. Besides, if I told you, there'd be a big
fight here. There's a book about Unit 731-----several in fact.

Which book.
don't tell us "A Book"

What if there
was a kamikaze attack on San Francisco with a plague bomb? This isn't something I just pulled out of thin air. Unit 731 existed. It even tested a plague bomb on the city of Harbin, China.

Unit 731 existed, yes.
they dropped Plague infested Fleas in Ningbo and Changbe, but not Harbin.
I don't know anything about a Plague Bomb being dropped in Harbin.

and when will they do this attack?
in 1941? 1945? we need more details.
 
I don't have anything in front of me. Besides, if I told you, there'd be a big
fight here. There's a book about Unit 731-----several in fact. What if there
was a kamikaze attack on San Francisco with a plague bomb? This isn't something I just pulled out of thin air. Unit 731 existed. It even tested a plague bomb on the city of Harbin, China.

So you won't post evidence because there'd be a big fight?

I won't argue that 731 didn't exist, but the numbers you are talking about are out of proportion for what they did.
 
Unit 731 was the Imperial Japanese Army's biological warfare unit. Allied
POWs were subjected to gruesome experiments. Its commander, General
Shiro Ikii, skated on war crimes charges because the United States wanted to use his knowledge for its fledgling biological warfare program. One of the
weirdest, and successful, bombs produced by Unit 731 was a plague bomb.
Survivors are suing the Japanese over this. More people died in Unit 731 than died in the Nazi death camps. There was a book written about it back in
the '90s. Another possibility, and real fear among policy makers in 1945, was
a possible kamikaze attack on San Francisco with plague bomb. Unlike the
Nazi death camps, very little is known about Unit 731.

Where do I start?

First off, only a small number of Allied POWs were experimented on by Unit 731. 95% of its victims were Chinese and Korean, a mixture of civilian and military prisoners. The remaining 5% was a mixture of SE Asians and Pacific Islanders and a handful of US and British POWs.

Also, the number of its victims you have is way off. Somewhere between 200,000-600,000 people died as a result of the experiments there. Nowhere near the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.

I think the "plague bomb" you are talking about is simply plague-carrying fleas dropped from plane.

I assume that your POD is the Japanese dropping the "plague bomb" on San Francisco in 1945? That's ASB. The Japanese navy was essentially destroyed following the Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944. There are no carriers available to get the plane carrying the bombs into range of San Francisco. Even if there was one, there was no fuel available to get it across the Pacific.

Even if they somehow were able to get all this, nothing would change. It wouldn't affect the outcome of the war at all; Japan had no chance whatsoever after Midway. Possibly a slightly harsher occupation. That's it. Any outbreak of plague in San Francisco would be contained fairly easily.
 

Blair152

Banned
Which book.
don't tell us "A Book"



Unit 731 existed, yes.
they dropped Plague infested Fleas in Ningbo and Changbe, but not Harbin.
I don't know anything about a Plague Bomb being dropped in Harbin.

and when will they do this attack?
in 1941? 1945? we need more details.
The one that stands out from the '90s is called Unit 731. I can't think of the
author's name. There were two books written about Unit 731 in the '80s.
The Devil's Gluttony, (1981), and The Devil's Gluttony: A Sequel, (1983).
The Devil's Gluttony was the book responsible for bringing knowledge of it
to the Japanese public.
 

Blair152

Banned
The one that stands out from the '90s is called Unit 731. I can't think of the
author's name. There were two books written about Unit 731 in the '80s.
The Devil's Gluttony, (1981), and The Devil's Gluttony: A Sequel, (1983).
The Devil's Gluttony was the book responsible for bringing knowledge of it
to the Japanese public.
I think it was in 1942 and '43. It was also responsible for chemical warfare.
Go to http://en.wikipedia.org/Unit731 . You can get more information there.
You could also go to www.amazon.com .
 
The one that stands out from the '90s is called Unit 731. I can't think of the
author's name. There were two books written about Unit 731 in the '80s.
The Devil's Gluttony, (1981), and The Devil's Gluttony: A Sequel, (1983).
The Devil's Gluttony was the book responsible for bringing knowledge of it
to the Japanese public.

Ok...
but where do you get the "through unit 731 died more people than through the german concentration camps" stuff from?
 

Blair152

Banned
Where do I start?

First off, only a small number of Allied POWs were experimented on by Unit 731. 95% of its victims were Chinese and Korean, a mixture of civilian and military prisoners. The remaining 5% was a mixture of SE Asians and Pacific Islanders and a handful of US and British POWs.

Also, the number of its victims you have is way off. Somewhere between 200,000-600,000 people died as a result of the experiments there. Nowhere near the 6 million Jews killed in the Holocaust.

I think the "plague bomb" you are talking about is simply plague-carrying fleas dropped from plane.

I assume that your POD is the Japanese dropping the "plague bomb" on San Francisco in 1945? That's ASB. The Japanese navy was essentially destroyed following the Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944. There are no carriers available to get the plane carrying the bombs into range of San Francisco. Even if there was one, there was no fuel available to get it across the Pacific.

Even if they somehow were able to get all this, nothing would change. It wouldn't affect the outcome of the war at all; Japan had no chance whatsoever after Midway. Possibly a slightly harsher occupation. That's it. Any outbreak of plague in San Francisco would be contained fairly easily.
Yes, there are. You seem to forget the Japanese have the three I-400 Sentoku class submarine aircraft carriers that the Japanese had at the time.
 

Blair152

Banned
Ok...
but where do you get the "through unit 731 died more people than through the german concentration camps" stuff from?
I'm dreading this. A few years ago, the History Channel had a program about
Unit 731. More than a few years ago, actually. It was thirteen years ago and they included the Allied POWs, the Chinese, Koreans, and the Chinese civilians. I couldn't find the books The Devil's Gluttony and The Devil's Gluttony: A Sequel. However, I find numerous titles on two pages.
 
Well, I would really like to see some reliable sources about this, since I find it very hard to believe, that Unit 731, as a research and biological warfare division murdered more than 6 million people.

But anyway, on the idea of dropping "pestbombs" on the US westcoast via the I 400 subs:
I don't think that would do Japan much good, if they're able to pull it off. IOTL, the japanese Navy wasn't able to bomb the Panama Canal with there two completed I 400s before the capitulation. But let's say they capitulate a few days later or start the mission a few days earlier. Let's also assume, they manage to get near San Francisco or Los Angeles. Both subs combined have 6 aircrafts on board. Even if they somehow, through surprise and tons of luck, manage to bomb their targets, how much damage can they cause? They probably will start a panic along the westcoast, but that's about all. Maybe the guy responsible for the air defence of the westcoast will get fired, but they surely will piss the USA off. Maybe even enough to drop a third atomic bomb or continue the mass bombing for just a little while, so the US public will get the feeling, that the westcoast has been avenged.
 
I'm dreading this. A few years ago, the History Channel had a program about
Unit 731. More than a few years ago, actually. It was thirteen years ago and they included the Allied POWs, the Chinese, Koreans, and the Chinese civilians. I couldn't find the books The Devil's Gluttony and The Devil's Gluttony: A Sequel. However, I find numerous titles on two pages.

The problem with that line of thinking, is the fact that disease is part of war. The chinese theater was likely full of disease based deaths as much because of unit 731 as the fact that there was little medicine or trained doctors on in China at that time. I would imagine that the fact Chang Kai-shek flooded the Yellow river basin which led to increase cases of Cholera and Malaria also had a hand in the amount of deaths due to disease.

Read the story of Norman Bethune who was one of the few doctors working to help the wounded and sick. He was a Canadian doctor and committed communist who cared for people Shanxi-Chahar-Hebei region. It is no wonder there was so much disease considering the environment.

It is impossible to distinguish people killed from Japanese biological warfare and the dire health situation of that war.
 
Yes, there are. You seem to forget the Japanese have the three I-400 Sentoku class submarine aircraft carriers that the Japanese had at the time.

That's great. Now get them through an Allied blockade of Japan that destroyed well over three-quarters of Japan's prewar merchant marine and drove the rest from the seas. Also, the US had broken the Japanese naval signal codes in 1943, so any attempt to contact the subs after they leave Japan would result in their discovery and destruction.

Also, these subs had a capacity of 3 seaplanes each. They cannot inflict very much damage on the US war effort with just 9 total planes. There will be a scare along the West Coast, and there would be a few deaths, but by that point there was essentially nothing that could stop or even delay Japan's doom.
 
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