Unique Austrian Culture

[Kordo]

So for almost all of its history, Austria has been considered part of Germany, or at least partly German in culture and history.

What if, by the late 1800s, early 1900s, a unique Austrian culture, one noticeably distinct from German culture, had begun to develop?

How would this have affected WWII (assuming Hitler and other major Nazi's still believed Austria was part of Germany)?

 

[David S Poepoe]

Hmm. Austria has always been considered unique and different than 'Germany'. When you talk about 'Germany' do you mean Prussia or that portion that was dominated by Prussia?

 

[Nietzsche]

Hmm. Austria has always been considered unique and different than 'Germany'. When you talk about 'Germany' do you mean Prussia or that portion that was dominated by Prussia?

Not before 1945.

 

[David S Poepoe]

Not before 1945.

Really? All those years as either the Austrian Empire or the Austro-Hungarian Empire didn't form a culture unique to Austria? I've read and studied my fair share of Austrian history and do consider it unique and different from Germany.

 

[Constantius]

Really? All those years as either the Austrian Empire or the Austro-Hungarian Empire didn't form a culture unique to Austria? I've read and studied my fair share of Austrian history and do consider it unique and different from Germany.

What Germany? Prior to unification, Germany was more of an abstract concept - the lands of the Germans, which certainly included Austria. While Austria certainly had and has its own variant of German culture, so did Prussia, Bavaria, Swabia, Saxony, and any number of other states.

 

[David S Poepoe]

What Germany? Prior to unification, Germany was more of an abstract concept - the lands of the Germans, which certainly included Austria. While Austria certainly had and has its own variant of German culture, so did Prussia, Bavaria, Swabia, Saxony, and any number of other states.

I had thought about originally posting 'Germany', but had decided to leave off the quotation marks. I am quite aware of everything you are saying. I was commenting about the 'Not before 1945' remark.

 

[Provencal]

IMO the best way to do this would be to have a stronger Hungarian influence in the Dual Monarchy. Maybe Hungarian culture spreads into Austria, even Hungarian language begins to take hold in some areas of Austria. Using a further back POD, perhaps even Slavic (Czech, Ukrainian, or Yugoslav) or Italian language and culture could take hold.

It's important to keep in mind that the entire concept of "nations" and certainly the rise of nationalist movements came out of struggles over language, especially in Austria-Hungary where the 1867 constitution gave language rights to all citizens of the dual Monarchy, in effect forcing each citizen to choose a language and thus a "nation," which gave rise to battles over who belonged to what "nation." If the constitution goes differently, you're left with almost no German nationalists in Austria, and people are much less concerned with preserving culture, so other political, social, and economic events can shape culture and even language, and Austria becomes less German.

 

[Grey Wolf]

So for almost all of its history, Austria has been considered part of Germany, or at least partly German in culture and history.

What if, by the late 1800s, early 1900s, a unique Austrian culture, one noticeably distinct from German culture, had begun to develop?

How would this have affected WWII (assuming Hitler and other major Nazi's still believed Austria was part of Germany)?

IMHO the way for it to happen would have resulted in sufficient butterflies that you can't talk about WW2 or Hitler. If you did inculcate sufficient change that what you want occurred then its not going to occur in a vacuum but have its own repercussions which will echo onwards and have additional effects

Also, one thing to consider is Rudolph's view. Austria had been kicked out of Germany, and out of Italy, so he was very much of the opinion that in order to survive Austria would need a goal, otherwise it would decay and become moribund. He believed in a goal of becoming the dominant Balkan power, and to this end saw eventual conflict with and victory over the Ottomans as the eventual course of Austrian history

Of course, he then got himself involved in some dodgy Hungarian dealings, buggered off to Mayerling with his mistress and shot himself

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

 

[Draco]

To accomplish this I think you’d need to have a POD earlier than 1800. Really I think you best bet would be to have the earlier Austria, Hungary, and Bohemia Union under Albert V survive at least of couple generation. If you could plausibly engineer that unlikely feat and somehow manage to marginalize its influence over the Holy Roman Empire I think you’d end up with an Austria that’s significantly more of an amalgamation of German, Bohemian, and Hungarian culture.

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Takes a much earlier POD, but how about the Hussites win, do their own translations of the Bible, and 'Austrian' ends up being very different from 'German' (especially if that 'German' is Platt or Aleman based rather than based on Luther's Saxon Hochdeutsch).

 

[Kabraloth]

I had thought about originally posting 'Germany', but had decided to leave off the quotation marks. I am quite aware of everything you are saying. I was commenting about the 'Not before 1945' remark.

After 1945, Austria started an extensive campaign to remove itself from Germany, including painting themselves as "Hitler's first victim" and demanding compensation from Germany.
Whatever you might say about the particularism of Austria, before this date there never was a question that the ethnic Germans of Austria were Germans.